What if there's an accident?
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Jon:Hey, everyone. Welcome to build your SaaS. This is the behind the scenes story of building a web app in 20 19. I'm John Buda, a software engineer.
Justin:And I'm Justin Jackson. I do product and marketing. Follow along as we build transistor dot f m. I'm I'm really having to dial up my energy here. Yeah.
Justin:This is a terrible thing to
Jon:say jumping jacks?
Justin:Yeah. This is a terrible thing to say right at the beginning of a show, but I I just I woke up at 5 this morning. You know, it it gets so bright so early. Yeah. And I don't have blackout blinds.
Justin:I should get some.
Jon:Yeah. They're they're good. They're, like, expensive and, like, heavy. Yeah. Just, like, so thick.
Justin:Yeah. They're good. Yeah. I kinda figured that out. I I because I'm waking up really early, and then I just feel ruined.
Justin:I my natural time, I think I'm best when I wake up at, like, 8 o'clock. You know? That's, like, a good time. With the kids, you have to wake up at 7, but 5, that's just ridiculous.
Jon:I don't mind waking up early. I mean, if I go to bed early, but, like, I don't I don't mind waking up with the sun. I think it's kinda nice, but
Justin:Yeah. But the sun must be up at, like, 4 AM or something. At least at least out here, it feels like it's it's it's so Yeah.
Jon:I'm trying to think for you because you're on, like, the eastern edge of a time zone.
Justin:4:53 AM is when sunrise is. So Oh, yeah. It's there's a lot of daylight starting in the morning. If you love to wake up at 5 AM, you should come here because it's like you're in it right away. I do like that feeling though when you've had a good night sleep.
Justin:Like, you go to bed early, and then you wake up at, like, 4 or 5, and it's still dark out.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:And you're like out, like, you can go for a walk and everyone's still sleeping.
Jon:And Yeah. You feel like you get a head start on everything.
Justin:Oh, I just love that. Yeah. And then you're just looking at those suckers that started their work day at 9.
Jon:I had a, like, a week of that once when I I was in Great Britain for, like, 10 days with a friend
Justin:Mhmm.
Jon:And had some jet lag coming home, so I'd wake up super early. I'd go to bed at, like, 9 o'clock, but wake up at, like, 5
Justin:Yes.
Jon:In the summer. And it was great because it was light out, and I was like, this is amazing. And I I there's no way to keep it up. But
Justin:Yeah. I mean, some people do. I know I know people that wake up at 5, and that's, like, their that's their day.
Jon:I'm like Yeah.
Justin:I could not do that. Talking about workdays, how how's it been? You've Good. You've been Yeah. Officially kinda gone for
Jon:Oh, yeah.
Justin:A little while now.
Jon:A little while. It's been interesting. Yeah. I mean, you know, obviously, last episode we talked about leaving. Mhmm.
Jon:Had a lot of good, like, positive feedback from people, which was kind of amazing. They're really, like, encouraging.
Justin:Tons of feedback, actually. People.
Jon:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's good to hear. I mean, you know, it's it's kind of always a gamble, but a lot of people are like, oh, man.
Jon:It's great. You know, congratulations. I know I'm or, like, I'm thinking of doing the same thing or I just did or, like Mhmm. You know, a lot of things like that. But,
Justin:Yeah. And I think people especially because we're we're trying to emotionally process what it's like to leave a job.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:And the I think one thing that resonated with folks is when we were saying, you know, contentment is good. But there there comes a time where you're just not not exactly just growing, but you're just not getting out of your current situation, what you'd like. It's no longer satisfying.
Jon:Mhmm.
Justin:And the that's a great time to go. Could be nothing wrong with, you know, where you were. It could it but having that ability to say your contentment has an expiration date. And if you're, you know, if you're just in a place where you're not doing your best work, well, maybe it's time to move on.
Jon:Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, we were processing that, and I think now we're gonna try to process what it's like to work independently Mhmm. On your own.
Justin:Yeah. Maybe describe for folks what what was it like working at the Cards Against Humanity office. Some people probably picture, like, clowns on unicycles
Jon:and Right. People are, like, doing keg stands and just, like, writing funny stuff.
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:It really it actually really evolved over the years. So they they had opened an office 4 years ago, I think.
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:And it really started out the company was a lot smaller then. There was no there was no black box. It was just cards against humanity, and they opened the office as kind of, like, this co working space slash office space for cards, but where half of the space would essentially be rented out to kinda like friends of the family almost, like friends of the company Yeah. Who would sort of rent desks at a pretty reasonable rate that would include all sorts of stuff, like, you know, food and, like, some snacks and coffee and drinks and, like, a nice desk and super fast Internet. And that was great.
Jon:I mean, it was, like, a really the 1st year, I think, was a really entertaining, like, interesting time because you there was so many other types of people there doing different stuff.
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:So in that in that sense, it, like, it didn't really feel like I was working for a company rather, but, like, in a coworking space.
Justin:Yeah. So
Jon:there's, like, a lot of other stuff going on.
Justin:What what what about that did you like?
Jon:I just like the it was easier to break up your day and sort of, like, talk to different people about different stuff, like, really sort of I don't know if cross pollination is the right word, but, like
Gavin:Mhmm.
Jon:Know, there are people doing, like, making video games and people making music and people doing just graphic design and photography, and it was just like you could just talk about different stuff during lunch or take a break and, like, you know, help some so help someone out with something that isn't even for cards and insanity. Yeah. So in that sense, it was it was pretty cool.
Justin:And there's almost two elements to that. There's this there's this part of, like, we just wanna enjoy our life. Mhmm. And we wanna spend our time being around interesting people who are doing interesting things. And with almost no like, on this side of the coin, there's almost no professional aspirations at all.
Justin:It's just fun and, enjoyable to be around interesting people who are doing interesting work.
Jon:Yeah. And so for the 1st year, that was great. And I think what happened was that a lot of people were sort of, like, staying at the office. There was a lot of stuff happening even after hours, like events and, like Mhmm. Because there's a there's a small theater at the office space that's really nice.
Justin:Yeah. So they
Jon:would do these events and, like, have people come in or do, like, it's, like, comedy comedy events or, like, political events or stuff like that. And I think people ended up getting burnt out on just, like, being there all the time.
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:So, like, it really changed after the 1st year and a lot of the and cards grew and black bars grew, and then some of the people who were just co working sort of, like, moved on and left and either got their own space or got different jobs and moved on. So it, like I don't know. It slowly, like, sort of morphed into something else Mhmm. Which wasn't necessarily bad. It was just different.
Jon:So that was, like, definitely a change to get used to. But, actually, working for cards, I mean, it was, you know, it was it was pretty relaxed as far as, like, jobs go and places to work, like, really kind of an amazing place.
Justin:Mhmm.
Jon:Yeah. You know, no one is on your, like, on you to, like, show up at 9 o'clock exactly and stay till 5 or 6. It's like we didn't necessarily ever work terrible hours. Yeah. Nobody was, like, pushing us to, you know, work 12 hour days or anything like that.
Jon:So
Justin:Yeah. On on the flip side, do you have do you have an idea of in which space you do your best work or in what kind of what's the setup you think you need to do your best work?
Jon:That's a good question. So the office is an open it's very open
Justin:Mhmm.
Jon:Which, you know, is, like, the I don't know if it's trendy. I mean, it's probably past that point now. It's cheaper.
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:But it honestly sucks.
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:Open offices are terrible.
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:They're really bad for, I think, concentration and productivity. Mhmm. You know, it's probably hard to find an office with a door anywhere, really.
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:But thinking back even before I started at cards, it was actually the summer I was working on the cards store website as a contractor. I was I was, at a shared workspace or, like, sharing an office space with a couple friends who were also independent
Justin:Mhmm.
Jon:Or working on their own stuff. And I that was probably, like, the best 5 or 6 months I've had as far as work goes.
Justin:Okay. Why is that?
Jon:It was well, it was just, like, a really nice quiet space. It was it was still open in the sense that it was one big room, but everyone had their own desk. Yeah. And everyone was largely, like, put on their headphones and did it work. We take breaks to, like, walk to get food.
Jon:Mhmm. Get some lunch. You know, there was, like, a ping pong table in the office, and no one really used. It was this video game company
Justin:Okay.
Jon:In Chicago, and they were so my friends were subleasing from this company. So I was essentially subleasing on a sublease and, like, paying my friends money. And, yeah, it was just, like, really easy to concentrate. I think there were largely not many distractions. Yeah.
Jon:You know, it wasn't like an office with a door, the small room that I could close and, like, really concentrate, but it was still, I don't know, isolated enough. Do I get to put headphones on and be like, the headphones mean don't talk to me for 2 hours.
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. But you enjoyed, like, having some human presence around you.
Jon:Yeah. Definitely. Yeah. That's ultimately what I wanna get back to is something like that, and I don't I don't know exactly what that's gonna look like, but I've I've been talking to a couple people, either about finding a small office space for, like, 3 or 4 of us Mhmm. Or trying to find a coworking space that, like, is, like, a little bit more of a, I don't know, collaborative, like, community environment as opposed to, like, sort of these white label were WeWork style monstrosities that are popping up where, like, I don't think anyone really is collaborating
Justin:Yeah. At all. Yeah. Yeah. It's I I've never actually been to one of those, but, you definitely know when you go into a co working space where it feels small and kind of homegrown and the, you know, people have kind of been added organically.
Justin:Yeah. There's a good vibe to those places. And, honestly, like this so here in Vernon, I I started out renting my own little office that was just, you know, a 200 square foot space with a door and a window. Mhmm. And there was a lot of about that that I liked.
Justin:It was nice to have my own kind of private space, but I did miss having human beings around.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:And so then we switched. I I started a a little co working place here with 4 sorry, 3 other guys. And initially it was like, okay, we're just going to split the rent between the 4 of us. And that's worked out really well. And, and since then we've added, I think we have, I don't know, probably 10 full time people now, and then maybe another 5 part time people.
Justin:And it's great. Like, it's a it's a really nice space. You know, today, there's only 2 other people here. And it's just enough kinda human beings around you. It gives you some someone to say hi to in the morning.
Justin:Hey, you know, how's it going? And similarly, you know, headphones on means you're kind of working or whatever. I do miss I think the the the perfect space for me would be a mix between the 2. So a commons where you could see other people and even, you know, there's certain tasks where it's fun to be around other people. Like if I'm doing support, customer support, I don't mind doing that around other folks.
Justin:Because the energy around you kind of is motivating. But I wish I had my own studio space where it's just a private room I go into and create. You know?
Jon:Right.
Justin:And I really love this idea of, like, the writing shed, you know, like Ernest Hemingway had a writing shed that was just in his backyard.
Jon:No. If I would say if I had a a backyard, I would probably do that. That actually sounds I know a lot of well, I don't know people, but I know of people.
Justin:Mhmm.
Jon:You know, through in the industry or through podcast or whatever that have that set up.
Justin:Yeah. And
Jon:it sound it sounds pretty cool.
Justin:And I think it's nice to have both. You know, a a private kind of studio space where you can go in and, you know, for me, it would be a space where I always have microphones and cameras all hooked up, lighting kinda ready to go, sound my sound stuff, and and, and also maybe a space for me to do writing that's quiet. But on the other hand, I still want that other kind of, like, you know, I'm working on something and, it you know, there's been tons of times here where, people have been able to just come over to my desk and help me with something. Right? And so, yeah, I think a mix between the 2 is kind of the ultimate.
Justin:And we're in this new weird phase of, of, you know, of work, I think. But even you and I are, like, working on this company. Part of the reason we're doing this is because we wanna figure out, like, we just want a good life. And so, yeah, figuring out, like, how to how to work and what environment we work best in and how much to work.
Jon:Right. Yeah. That's gonna be it it'll be it's gonna be tricky. I I do know this already. Working at home is not gonna work.
Jon:Like, I I don't I don't I can't really pinpoint it, what it is. I mean, there's you just end up being in the same place all day. It's not it's not good. Yeah. Coffee shops are okay, but, like, I I worked in coffee shops so much in my twenties that, like, I just can't Yeah.
Jon:I don't know if they have changed or I if I've changed, but, like, I it just I can't focus in those anymore
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:Really. And I just feel bad, like, sitting at a table for, like, hours at a time.
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. There's something about having and really thinking through what is my optimal work environment. And I think one of the best things I did was rent an office outside of my house.
Jon:Mhmm.
Justin:And that act of jumping on my bicycle, riding down to the office, And there's this article I'll link to. It's called how creating contextual zones can turn you into a productivity powerhouse. But the whole idea, it's this this fellow Kunal Shandil Shandia. And he says, I I noticed when I entered the library, I was already thinking about reading and writing. And the idea is that when we when we go to certain places, our brain says, oh, I know what this place is for.
Justin:You go to the kitchen Right. Your brain goes, this place is for eating. When you go to your bedroom, your brain goes this place is for sleeping. The problem happens is if you start doing work in your bedroom, then your brain doesn't know what the heck to do. Right?
Justin:Right. And that's where people get insomnia because they'll lay down
Jon:in bed. Yeah. Exactly. That's why I never want a TV in my room, my bedroom.
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:Can't do it.
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. And it's I I've actually been tempted. I don't know. I must be getting older because I I was always, like, no TV in the bedroom.
Justin:And lately, I've been, like, laying in bed. I'm like, man, I just wish I had a TV right here.
Jon:You have 1 in your hand, a phone.
Justin:I know. That's the that's the other problem. But there's something about contextual zones that I think is really resonates with me. And so when I, you know, when I get to my office, I know, okay, this is where I get work done. You know, the coffee shop for me is, like, this is the place where I do my socializing.
Justin:This is where I, you know, maybe have interesting conversation. Right. The park and the places I go for walks around here are you know, these are the places I do my thinking and dreaming.
Jon:Mhmm.
Justin:And so just thinking about those zones has been really helpful for me, and I think helpful for my brain to not be always kind of pulled from one place to the other of, like, okay, Justin, are you home right now? Are you, like, home with family and relaxing? Or are you working? Even now, I I probably do a little too much work at home because I can tell when I I I get home, sometimes my brain is still like, well, no. You're you're still in work mode.
Justin:Right?
Jon:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it for me, even if even with a full time job at an office, like, I still have a hard enough time shutting off and not working at home. Yeah. So, like, for me to work at home during the day and not go anywhere and then, like, when do I when do I when is, like, not work time?
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
Jon:Yeah. And I yeah. And I I, you know, I knew that I've been through phases like this before. I I I know that about myself already, which is good. It's not like I have to learn that.
Jon:It's just finding, I think, the right space
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:With with the right people is, you know, something I kinda wanna think on and, like, really make the right decision about. The other thing the other thing too is, like like, I don't have much of a commute, really. So I think part of I mean, you know, I I would never wanna, like, drive for an hour to work every day. Mhmm. Or drive you know, like, the the whole, like, drive to work for an hour, drive back from work for an hour every day.
Jon:Like, that sounds not not great. But, like, I think there's something to be said for, like, you know, in Chicago anyway, like, getting on a train or getting on a bus or, you know, riding your bike, but, like, the act of, like, traveling somewhere and sort of just feeling like you're part of some like, part you're around people who are also
Justin:Yeah.
Gavin:You might
Jon:say you might see some of the same people every day, but, like, you just see other people doing, I don't know, other stuff. You're just like it's a it's a time to, like, think and, like, Yeah. Let your mind just kinda, like, wander because you don't really you're not working yet. You're not at home. You're just, like, going to a place, which, you know, a lot of people just look at their phone.
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:I don't generally do that. I don't think when I'm on a train. I sort of just, like, look around.
Justin:That's a good point. Like, those transition times, I've never even thought
Jon:about time. Yeah.
Justin:Yeah. There's something about that that going from one place to the other, and your brain is just kinda, like, getting ready or your brain is winding down. I do think there's something about that too. And you lose that when you're at home because you just get up and, like, you go from your sad bowl of cereal to your sad laptop.
Jon:Yeah. In in your you're still in your boxers or something. You're just like, you haven't really
Justin:Yeah. You're
Jon:turn turn on work mode. You're like, well, here's a couch and a laptop.
Justin:Yeah. This is
Jon:all I need.
Justin:Yeah. And you're just kinda yeah. You're just there in your in your your bed filth. Yeah.
Jon:And then you're like, oh, now it's 4 o'clock in the afternoon. I haven't really
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. The I think there's there's a few interesting elements. There's, like, this like, that transition time of I'm leaving my house. I'm not yet at work, but now I'm going to do some things that are kind of on the way to work.
Justin:And, yeah, for me, a lot of that is being on the bike. And I even have this weird thing I do where I I get on my bike and I just look start, like, looking at my legs doing pedaling. And there's this, like, rotation of the pedals. And it just kind of, like, wakes me up, and it makes me feel like I'm in a rhythm. And then I'm pedaling, you know, down the hill.
Justin:And then the next kind of stop is always for coffee first and going in for coffee and seeing people and saying hello. And, you know, all of these are kind of transition things. And then by the time I get to the office, hopefully, I'm ready to kinda okay. I'm gonna I'm gonna do some work here. So, yeah, that's interesting.
Justin:Like, going for walks or jumping on a bus or I I know some people who work from home that they would actually do that. They would, like, take a a short bus ride or or do a walk around their you know, like, they would get dressed as if they were going for work, and then they would leave their house out one door, and then they would come back to their house through a side door. And then it was this feeling of, okay. Now I'm at work.
Jon:Nice. Yeah. Yeah. I can see that being effective.
Justin:Yeah. I think the only other thing that's been really helpful for me, and you touched on this, is this idea of having local community and online community. Yeah. One of the nice things about moving to a new town is so when I moved here in 2012, I was really moving here with intention. Like, okay, you know, this isn't my old town where I could just kind of like be complacent.
Justin:I have to move here and I have to make stuff happen. And so I was really motivated to meet people and that's been really helpful to feel like, you know, here at the coworking place. And then I run this event called Geek Beers. And, you know, I've, like I said, I've got tons of kind of like, intellectual friends that I talk to you at at the coffee shop I go to. And so I feel like I've developed this kinda group of people that are here locally, you know, half of whom are maybe in tech related things, but the other half are not.
Justin:And man, that's been nice to just be able to, you know, go for lunch with people. Yep. And, and have that connection. Cause when you're working online and especially for you and I, because we're not in the same place, or if you're on a remote team, even you, you still need local connection. And, Yeah.
Justin:I've definitely felt that missing in the past. And now that I have it here, I I get it. It's like, oh, yeah. This this part is like, why you can't just live in the suburbs and work in the suburbs. And, you know, like, you have to get out and be amongst people.
Justin:And there's gotta be kind of a group of people that you see with a regular cadence.
Jon:Right. Yeah. And that's that's the thing I've largely, I think, lost touch with over the last few years, I think, is, like, that local community that I that I did really, you know, make an effort to build up.
Justin:Mhmm.
Jon:Because I moved to Chicago in 2008. And it took a it took a while, but, like, I I like, at some point, I think I just decided to make an effort to do that.
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:It took a lot of work, and it, like, really worked out.
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:Per personally and professionally, and, I think I sort of lost touch with some of that, just having a full time job for as long as I did.
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:And then the online community aspect, like, I really I don't necessarily have that either. Mhmm. So I will, you know, have to sort of build that up too. Yeah. I certainly, like, have had some of that in the past, but I really like my interaction on Twitter and stuff has been really minimal, and, like, I'm not super active in any sort of, like, Slack groups or online forums that I've I'm a part of.
Jon:So Yeah. That that'll be a that'll be a, I think, a challenge for me.
Justin:Yeah. I mean, I think the local piece is the most important part.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:And then the online piece can be helpful, because then it's that same idea of you're interacting with these folks all around the world who have different skills and can, you know, yeah, just apart from, from your work and your team and everything else, give you other perspective. I found that really helpful.
Jon:Yeah. But I think even for travel, it's really huge too because, you know, you end up making these, I guess, friends, if you wanna call them that Mhmm.
Justin:That you've
Jon:never met around the world, and you go travel somewhere that that really live. And it's like, you can meet up with them, and it's like, oh, yeah. We know each other. This is cool.
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. Totally. From there,
Jon:you end up meeting their friends
Justin:Mhmm.
Jon:Their their social group in their city and, like
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:You know, it just kind of you'd see then you end up knowing so many people all over the world or the country, which, you know, I I've I've I'm in that boat. Like, I know a lot of people in different cities either through other conferences or, you know, XOXO. It's how we met.
Justin:Mhmm. Yeah.
Jon:And I've stayed, you know, friends. Like, some people are I would consider less friends as acquaintances, but, like, I've still stayed in touch with some of them, like, off and on. So you can still, like, meet up with them and, like, have a coffee or drink, and it's, like, super relaxed.
Justin:Yeah. And it yeah. And and can be helpful too.
Jon:Yeah. Yeah.
Justin:Yeah. All of that is is, important. And now the nice thing is that if you're as long as you're conscientious about it, because you're just getting into it again, you can be you can kind of design the life that you want because you can think about, okay, how am I going to do this? Right? Let's just break and talk to you about profitwell.com.
Justin:Using ProfitWell's API, Manuel Frigaro? I think I'm saying that right. He created a Google Sheet that automatically gives him a weekly report on his business's key KPIs. And he was able to do all of that. There's instructions online.
Justin:I I'll link to his tweet in the show notes as well. Profitwell.com gives you all of your SaaS metrics for free. And they are also releasing season 2 of their podcast. The first episode just dropped. You can check out that podcast at protect the hustle.com.
Justin:I thought another thing that we could talk about because it's and it it kind of touches on this whole thing, but we recently, I said, we should share our contact information. So like, you should share my contact information with some emergency contacts on your side.
Jon:Right.
Justin:And I should do the same on my side. Can you remember why that came up?
Jon:Because you were going hiking Oh. In the mountains, and you're like, see in 3 days, I won't have a phone. I think that's why I
Justin:came up. Yeah. I think you're right. Yeah. And I, again, this interesting thing that only Internet businesses have to think about.
Justin:By the way, I think what we are doing is super interesting and beautiful. And there's something about 2 people in 2 different countries who are building a business together. That's really cool and doing it remotely. And there's all sorts of benefits, I I think, that we get from that. But one of the weird things is, like, let's say it's a 100 years ago, and you and I decide to start a bakery together.
Justin:Right? Mhmm. And, you know, you'd probably be in the back baking bread. I'd probably be in the front hustling bread. And, you know, if something happened let's say that you're in the back and you you chopped off on your fingers.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:Well, it's very likely I would know some people that should know. Right? So, like, maybe I I'd met your parents or something, and I'd be like, oh, I better give John's parents a call because he just chopped off his fingers. But, the or in a similar vein, like, if I was, you know, out, I'm trying to think of what I'd be doing a 100 years ago.
Jon:Riding your your, your old school bicycle with a huge wheel to work
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. And you got
Jon:hit by a a horse.
Justin:Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Horse and buggy. My my spouse might have to run to the bakery and say, hey, John.
Justin:Justin just got hit by a horse and buggy. He won't be at work today.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:And, but because we're building this Internet business, our circles, like, there's very there's very little overlap. And, I think it just means we have to be kind of more thoughtful and mindful. And actually, I haven't heard of anyone else doing this. I'm sure other cofounders have done this. I should ask.
Justin:But, yeah, we just basically, I just took your contact information, and I wrote 3 emails to, you know, people in my family and just said, hey, I'm partnered with John, in this company called Transistor Inc. Here's where it's located. You know, here's some other details. And here's John's contact information, just in case something happens. And yeah, I think it's, it's interesting that it it was interesting even to have that thought of like, oh, yeah.
Justin:We should do that.
Jon:Right. It seems weird to say, but I'm like, I hope they never contact me.
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. You know, of course. I mean, it's a little bit morbid.
Jon:Oh, yeah. But But you gotta think about that stuff.
Justin:But I'm gonna die someday. Right. So and I'm I'm older than you. So, statistically, I'll probably die first. So when we're still running our business in our nineties, and I'm like I turned 99, and I just, like, choke on a ham sandwich.
Jon:And you just, like, you just, like, turn into dust.
Justin:Yeah. I just turn into dust. It'll be nice for for, you know, people in my family to be able to contact me and go, well, it finally happened. Justin turned to dust.
Jon:Just blew away in the wind.
Justin:It just blew away to the wind. And then, you know, I I think there is a question of, like and I'm sure there's some legal folks that can talk about this, but you know, what does happen? I don't I don't exactly know what happens when stuff like that happens. Like, if I go into a coma for 30 years, like, what happens?
Jon:Yeah. I don't know. I need to I actually need to talk to a lawyer about that too. It just personally, because there's, like, power of attorney stuff that can happen. I don't know how it is in Canada.
Jon:Maybe it's slightly different.
Justin:Well, that's the other weird thing is that how does it work for us? Like, especially me being a Canadian shareholder in this American company.
Jon:Right. I don't know.
Justin:Yeah. I mean, and I mean, this podcast would be pretty boring if it was just you on the microphone and me in a coma.
Jon:That would be pretty bad.
Justin:Although, that would be I I mean, I would probably listen to at least one episode of, you know, Justin's in a coma. Anyway, I I thought it was interesting enough that we should mention it. And maybe another thing that we touched on last time, but this this article by one of the founders of Dribbble
Gavin:Mhmm.
Justin:I I'll just read this quote because it's it's something that, you know, I've I've thought of quite a bit, especially as I've been recommending to people to get a cofounder. So this fellow, what's his name? I think it's Rich. He says, no. No.
Justin:This is this is the other this is the God that's not rich. But he
Gavin:says This
Jon:is Dan. Right?
Justin:Yeah. Dan. That's right.
Jon:Dan Cederholm. Yeah.
Justin:Yeah. So Dan Cederholm says, know that a partnership is very much like a marriage. Should you be blessed with any amount of success, you'll be going through some stuff with these people. You'll be spending a lot of time together. You'll be making big life decisions together.
Justin:You won't always get along. You won't always see eye to eye. And he says co founding a company requires you to be married. And sometimes that isn't easy, but it's important for you to be close on a level that can test your will. Communication is paramount.
Justin:And so, and I know you got a few other things out of this article that would be good to talk about too. But I just obviously, I think, having a cofounder is not a thing to take lightly. And, you know, so far, I think you and I have been lucky. And in that, I think we've worked pretty good together. But there's obviously, like, when someone lays it on the ground like that, like, you know, something's gonna happen.
Justin:Right? And and I think it's just helpful to have these these, in some ways, you can't avoid the discomfort of this. But what it seems like you can do is emphasize the stuff that helps, like communication
Jon:Right.
Justin:Having hard conversations. And we even touched on this in the past. Like, we've both struggled in our former lives to sometimes have difficult conversations.
Jon:Yeah. I mean, I know for me personally, that is something I definitely shy away from.
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:And then I need to work, like, really hard on to actually even, like, initiating those conversations or trying to, like, not avoid them entirely. But
Justin:Yeah. And so, I mean, again, we've said this last time, but one of the things this podcast does allow us to do is vocalize some things in in some ways in a safe way because we're we're recording it for the show. But, yeah, I just found, like, his whole description of their partnership really interesting. And clearly, like, when a partnership is going well, you have 2 different people that both have different strengths and weaknesses that hopefully equal each other equalize each other. And they're able to go in a common direction and, you know, make this incredible progress.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:But you're not gonna be able to find somebody who's different than you, which is kinda what you need and not and expect that there's it's just always going to be, you know, easy or, fun. Yeah.
Jon:I mean, I yeah. We haven't we haven't really I don't think we've had any really terrible, like, conversations or confrontations or anything yet, but, I mean, they'll it'll happen. I don't I don't think either of us can really predict what that topic's gonna be.
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:Who knows? But
Justin:Yeah. Exactly. Or or just something stressful. You know?
Jon:Yeah. Yeah.
Justin:That's true. There'll be there'll be some things for sure. And I, again, to me, I think there's a part, a power in having somebody else there that is easy to discount. You know, I think you can do a lot of this stuff as a solo founder. But the the more I've worked with you, the more I've realized, like, sometimes it's just motivating to have someone else kinda in their arena with you.
Justin:You know?
Jon:Yeah. I mean, it's cert it's definitely helpful, like, you know, like, on days where you're low energy. You know? Like, for instance, if you're, like, today, if you're tired and
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:You know, it's probably helpful to have someone there to just talk to you and, like
Justin:Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's yeah.
Justin:Yeah. I I Yeah. I I can't I can't I don't think I could do this. I don't think especially a software company, I think, is really difficult to do by yourself.
Jon:Yeah. I mean, there's there's a lot of times, a lot of days where we're gonna record, and I'm just like, you know, it's it's a once a week thing, but it come it feel like it comes up so quickly. Yeah. But I'm like, man. Yeah.
Jon:Like, I'm not ready for this. I'm, like, thinking about something else or, like, not finished with this other thing. I'm like, oh, jeez.
Justin:Yeah. But
Jon:then once you start, it's totally fine. But
Justin:Yeah. Well and again, like, it's, you know, the this kind of root routinized routinized practice
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:Of now we gotta we gotta record the show, which means you and I have to you and I have to talk about stuff. And yeah. I I think there's something really healthy about that. What were what were some of the other things? I I know you wrote some of these notes while ago.
Jon:Yeah. I'm trying to I'm actually browsing through this article right now, or this post. It's actually a really good post. It's about him yeah. Just important lessons he learned running a company for, I guess, 10 years.
Jon:Mhmm. Right? 10? Yeah. Which seems kinda crazy, but that it's been that long.
Jon:No. I mean, Dan Cedarholm was a simple simple bits on Twitter. He was, like, a really early proponent of, you know, standards based HTML and CSS. Like, he was really pretty influential in my early learning.
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:Back in, you know, 2003, 2004 when that stuff was really taking off. So it's kind of it's been interesting to watch his career, I guess. And, Yeah. There was a lot of little things I think you can take out of this. Like, there's some funny stuff.
Jon:Like, he says start start with a T shirt Yeah. Which is you know, which I guess is we did we did that too sort of. We had a we had a couple T shirts.
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. I've got a few shirts.
Jon:Yeah. His was in context of, like, make a bunch of T shirts, send them out to to people you know or customers that will, like, talk about it and send them, like, a care package and be like, hey. Here's this thing with a cool t shirt.
Justin:Mhmm. I I'd like to do that actually soon again is is, probably do some print on demand just to start because it's easy. But, yeah, make a bunch more shirts. I've sent I sent Chris Enns a shirt, and it's just fun having people, you know, receive something and wear it and, you know, feel like they're so much of our our thing is people feeling like they're part of the journey. Right?
Justin:So, yeah, I I totally resonate with that.
Jon:Yeah. The other I think the other couple of things that really stood out was, he's talks about persistent iteration over flashy launches.
Justin:Yes.
Jon:Really, I think, you know, I I see these companies, like, working for months months months to launch this thing that they're working on. They launch it, and it's like it just lands with, like, a dud or something. It's like, here's this new thing, and then nobody really cares. So, like Mhmm. You know, if you can, I think, just, like, slowly fix and work on things?
Jon:Like, there's obviously gonna be features that need, you know, weeks at a time to really focus on, but I don't think you need to really make every feature, every launch this big, like, announcement.
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:It's just like you know, I I I think we could probably do a better job of sending out notices to our customers of, like, here's what's new in the last month, and here's how to use it. Mhmm. Yeah. Maybe now that we, you know, both are working on this more, we can maybe make that happen. But I don't think we need to be, like, we just launched a new thing and, like, announce it to the world.
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. Like like, ladies and gentlemen, you know, hold on to your hats because you have not seen this before. And then
Jon:We have just changed the world of
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:X and y.
Justin:Changing the world of audio forever.
Jon:Make you know, pay someone to, like, $50,000 to make some weird video or, like, promotional video, and then where's that money going? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Justin:I think that's good advice for sure.
Jon:There's a couple points about well, this was about him designing a website and app for designers, he said, which is difficult. But, you know, we're sort of making a podcasting site for podcasters. So Yeah. Couple things he says is, like, learn who to ignore.
Justin:Okay.
Jon:Which I think we've done a pretty good job of maybe. Like, you know, you have some people who are maybe persistently asking or, like, asking in a way that's a little bit negative, like, demanding something. Mhmm. You're like, okay. Well, here's some here's some other recommendations of maybe who you can work with.
Justin:Yeah. I I I really like that actually of not, like there's the there's this idea of, like, you should just take any customer you can get and then just work as hard as you can to please them.
Jon:Right.
Justin:But there's some really hard to please people. And they're they're really not worth it. Like it, if they're if they were hard to convince to sign up, and then they get in, and then they're, like, still unhappy. Mhmm. It just sucks so much of your energy.
Justin:And there is kind of a tipping point, I think, where you have to go, okay. Well because sometimes you you're able to help those folks and, you know, they're great. They you know, there's just a a little bit of a a bigger on ramp, but then they're really they're really wonderful customers. But, many times people that are like, okay. So, yeah.
Justin:Convince me. Why should I sign up? What what makes you better than x, y, and z? Prove it to me. Oh, well, but they have this over here and what you know, why why don't you have that?
Justin:You're not gonna be able to please those people. So your inclination is to be, like, is to kind of fight for your your product and, you know, tell people all the ways it's better. But, really, you know, it shouldn't take too much convincing.
Jon:Right. I guess if it does, you know, I guess, maybe the takeaway from that type of example is, like, maybe our marketing site doesn't do a good enough job of explaining some some aspect of what we do.
Justin:Yeah. There's there's there's the true there's always gonna be folks that you just cannot please or are difficult to please. And so, you definitely wanna ignore those folks. And I think also there's always gonna be people on the sidelines who have no vested interest in what you're doing, except that they're on the sidelines, and they have an opinion.
Jon:Right.
Justin:Yeah. And so with those folks, I'm always a little bit like, okay, well, I see you. You're on the sidelines, but you like there's you have no investment other than the fact that you can, write a comment about what we're doing. That's that's not as interesting to me as somebody who, you know, is a customer from day 1 or a long time customer or somebody who has, you know, some some skin in the game.
Jon:Yeah. The last the last one, I think, and I think you do an especially good job of this is, celebrate the positive.
Justin:Okay. What do you mean by that?
Jon:Well, he says, focus on praise and positivity positivity and make sure your team reads it all. So they had a Slack channel where they actually, like, they would just post, like, really positive mentions of of Dribble
Justin:Mhmm.
Jon:Which, you know, you do you do a lot of. You're like, hey. This this person's saying this about us and Mhmm. Which is really great to hear, especially, like, if you're if you're kind of, like, in a spot where you're stuck on something or you're grumpy or you're like Mhmm. It's really it's nice to hear that from customers because, you know, a lot of times you'll hear from customers who are complaining about a bug or something going wrong.
Justin:Yeah. Yeah.
Jon:And that's like if that's all you hear, it's just like, oh my god. Everyone thinks this thing is terrible.
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. Or or you could just be stuck in the weeds and, like, stuck with a really mucky bit of tech, you know, or or something that's just boring. And, I still get really excited when I hear from people that have experienced the kind of what makes podcasting special.
Jon:Mhmm.
Justin:And there there's just getting excited about the medium, really inspires me. And so when folks are, like, making connections with their audience or even better when the audience is responding and saying, oh my god. Like, you you told it felt like you were speaking directly to me during that part.
Jon:Right.
Justin:And there's something about, you know, sometimes being raw and sometimes sharing something that was, you know, previously maybe not talked about. Or just being able to articulate the the human experience and having someone on the other end of the line go, oh, oh, me too. I've never heard anyone You know, this is the first time I felt a connection with someone else that I had experienced that. I find those things very encouraging. And, Yeah.
Justin:Just that something deep about that, that I, I, I feel like, yeah, I, and I do try to post those to Slack because it it's, it's inspiring for us because we know we're not just, we're not just like writing code or just, you know, another, we're not just 2 other white guys on the internet. Like what we're trying to empower people to connect with an audience. And then even better, we're we're hopefully positively affecting listeners who are, you know, getting to hear these things and maybe having their own revelations or not feeling so alone or whatever.
Jon:Yeah. Absolutely.
Justin:Sweet. Well, let's button this up.
Jon:Yeah. We'll, yeah. We'll probably give an update on the whole independent working thing at some point in the future. Yeah.
Justin:I think we should touch back on it. I'd love to hear from listeners actually, how they manage their work day when they're working alone or on a remote team. You can just reach out to us on Twitter at transistorfm or, at johnbuda, b u d a. I'm at m I, Justin, the letter m, the letter I, Justin. And, yeah.
Justin:We'd love to hear from you. But, yeah. Let's give a shout out to the Patreon folks.
Jon:Yeah. Cool. Yeah. As always, thank you to all of our supporters on Patreon for making this show possible. We have Colin Gray, from alitu.com, Josh Smith, Ivan Kerkovic, Brian Ray, Miguel Pedraffita, Shane Smith, Austin Loveless, Simon Bennett, Corey Hanes, Michael Sittmer, Paul Jarvis, and Jack Ellis, Dan Buddha, my brother.
Justin:Yeah. Is he you're gonna see him soon.
Jon:Soon. Yeah.
Justin:It's a it's a holiday over there soon. Yeah. It's 4th July. Independence Day.
Jon:Independence Day. You just had what? Canada Day?
Justin:Yeah. We just had Canada Day.
Jon:I suppose that's the similar
Justin:It yes. It's similar, but
Jon:we celebration?
Justin:We're just celebrating, like, hey. We never we never, like, kicked the monarchy out. We're still cool with them.
Jon:So not so much independence as, like yeah.
Justin:We're just like yeah. We're just like, well, things worked out for us too, I guess.
Jon:Yeah. Darby Frey.
Justin:Darby Frey.
Jon:Samori Augusto, Dave Young, Brad from Canada, Kevin Markham, Sammy Schuichert, Dan Erickson, Mike Walker, Adam Devander, Dave Junta.
Justin:Junta. I love I I can't wait. Have you noticed that Junta, numbers his Instagram posts?
Jon:I he yeah. I haven't I haven't been on there in a while, but he used to do that. He does, like, the one a day type of deal Okay. 365 thing.
Justin:Okay. So I I yeah. I've been trying to figure that out. Alright.
Jon:So it's like the day of the year, I think he does.
Justin:Okay. I can't wait to see what what's gonna be on July 4th.
Jon:Oh,
Justin:yeah. I mean, he's pretty artsy with his photos. And so, I mean, I I would I'm expecting, like, my over under is for fireworks. But I'm thinking, ah, Junta's pretty artsy, so maybe he's gonna do something else.
Jon:It'd be something else. You never know.
Justin:Stay tuned, folks.
Jon:Kyle Fox, get at get rewardful dot com, and our sponsors this week, ProfitWell and Redash.
Justin:Yeah. Thanks everyone for listening, and we will see you next week.
