Speaker 1: 00:00

So it's not just about being oppressed or being an oppressor. It's about resisting oppression and resisting being an oppressor, being an ally, being an advocate for social justice.

Justin: 00:22

So that was doctor Beverly Daniel Tatum. That's on a podcast called Talking to Teens. It's, me, Justin. And, John. You're here too.

Justin: 00:35

Right?

Jon: 00:35

I'm here. Hello.

Justin: 00:37

And, it's Thursday, June 4th right now. I imagine we'll publish this on Tuesday, but it might get published before that. Right now, in cities across America, really around the world. Yeah.

Jon: 00:53

It's yeah. It's around the world. It's been kind of amazing. Huge To see you.

Justin: 00:56

Huge protests in Canada, in Europe, all over the world. People are protesting the systemic violence and oppression that black people face. And, really, I mean, there was a a string of deaths in the US, George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery, and Breonna Taylor, at the hands of police. And it's really shaken the country. It's, I think, shaken the world.

Justin: 01:30

We realize that we are 2 white dudes. And we also realize that most of the people listening to this podcast are also white white dudes. And we didn't want to miss an opportunity to speak to other folks like us about what's going on.

Jon: 01:55

Yeah. It's it's easy to stay silent, I think, but definitely not the thing to do. You know, we have an an audience. It's not an enormous audience, but we have an audience and it's, I think, kind of our responsibility to bring up these topics, even though they're difficult to talk about and they're, although they shouldn't be difficult to talk about. Mhmm.

Jon: 02:25

I guess, like, I think that's one of the things that struck me a lot is, like, what's so contra controversial with all the stuff that people are fighting for? Mhmm. Yeah. It's just what is controversial about ending racism and promoting equality?

Justin: 02:42

Yeah. I I mean, I really I think for myself, it's just really woke me up. And I don't know why it's like, Ferguson had an impact on me, but not like this. This has really shook me and woke me up to it feels like I'm just finally getting the full force of what black people have been telling us for

Jon: 03:16

Yeah. You know, 100 of years.

Justin: 03:20

Yeah.

Jon: 03:21

Yeah. Ferguson definitely had an impact, and it it was one of those ones where I wouldn't say for you forget about it, but it it didn't I mean, it it started a movement. Mhmm. Black Lives Matter and a lot of a lot of these other movements, but it didn't really change anything.

Justin: 03:44

Mhmm.

Jon: 03:45

And I I feel like there's a difference today in that and that was what, 4 years ago?

Justin: 03:54

Yeah. I think so.

Jon: 03:55

I feel like the difference today is, I mean, it's compounding. Right? You have coronavirus going on.

Justin: 04:00

Mhmm.

Jon: 04:02

There is massive unemployment in the US.

Justin: 04:05

Mhmm.

Jon: 04:06

The income inequality is huge and growing.

Justin: 04:09

Yep.

Jon: 04:10

You have what amounts to a racist in the office in White in the White House Mhmm. Who is not doing anything to help. Mhmm. And, yeah, just 100 of years of oppression amongst a group of people that of just systemic racism that is holding people down. Mhmm.

Jon: 04:32

And people are fed up.

Justin: 04:33

Yeah. And I I think that's what again, I think that's what really woke me up is is seeing how complicit I am in that system.

Jon: 04:47

Yeah.

Justin: 04:48

That, you know, for me, the police has never been a problem. And I'm just seeing, like, the the and in the past, I would have even said, like, the police were a good thing. Like, it's it's good to increase police budgets. It's good to have more police on the streets. And I'm realizing how much, how much that speaks to my privilege and and how that's not true for a big group of people.

Justin: 05:20

Let's play this next clip here. This is Bernice King on CNN. She's the daughter of Martin Luther King. Do you think this moment is any different than moments that have come before it?

Speaker 4: 05:32

I do think it's different. I think it's different because there are circles of people now in the white community who are really seriously looking at the issue of white supremacy, looking in their hearts, looking in their souls, speaking some of the language, but recognizing that this has to change, and it cannot go back to business as usual. This is a moment of opportunity. There's a cleansing going forward in this in this nation. People are crying out, and this cry is being heard all over this land and all over this world.

Speaker 4: 06:10

And we will see fundamental change one way or another. My hope is that we don't continue to see continuing destruction, that we will begin to reconstruct our nation on a solid foundation of love and nonviolence and change and justice for all people.

Justin: 06:28

I mean, there's been a series of especially Twitter for me, a a series of tweets. And that was one of the ones I saw that have just again, just really made me examine my involvement in a racist system. A system that that does push some people certain groups to the margins. I was telling you is I think in the past, it was easy for me to ignore some of this stuff because I'm Canadian. And I think Canadians secretly have this kind of, like, moral superiority complex.

Jon: 07:12

Right.

Justin: 07:12

Where we just go, well, if we're you know, it's not bad here. And, that is just I'm just embarrassed that I had that thinking now. It it Yeah. It it it reveals, I think I guess I'm I'm just really reckoning with my own racism.

Jon: 07:32

Yeah. Yeah. It's, I mean, it's it's similar in Chicago, I think, which is from the outside a very mixed city, but when you're here, it's incredibly segregated.

Justin: 07:43

Mhmm.

Jon: 07:43

So it's it's easy for me to say that it's not an issue because I don't see it Mhmm. Day to day. But it is massive issue in the city.

Justin: 07:53

I know that some people are listening to this and are going to think that I think it's easy when you are the dominant culture. I think you don't see all the ways in which you're dominant and all the ways in which it affords you comfort and opportunity. And I'll speak for myself. I mean, even, like, building transistor, I and there's part of me that's had this feeling of like, okay. Finally, I did it.

Justin: 08:24

You know? I finally, I've built a company. I've you know, we've done it. And and there's a little bit of me, not or maybe a big part of me that wants to say, you know, I did that all myself. And, again, I think because George Floyd's death ripped open for me, at least, I know I know for other people realize this before.

Justin: 08:48

But for me, it just it ripped open this, like, fundamental truth that that there's a whole group of folks being pushed to the margins, being discriminated against in the ways that we don't see, in ways we don't understand. And, the the, like, naive ignorance of just wanting to ignore it, of just wanting to stay neutral. I I think that was the other difference between Ferguson and now is now it's just so much more clear. And this is mostly because, black people are saying, like, white people need to speak up. Mhmm.

Jon: 09:37

Yeah. It's one thing, I think, a lot of the things I've been reading, which seems so obvious, but has only, you know, been becoming clearer and clearer over the last week is you can say you're not racist and be neutral about it and not do anything, but that really doesn't do anything.

Justin: 10:00

Mhmm.

Jon: 10:01

Like, you have to be anti racist. You have to be actively against it and promote, you know, policy and changes that will actually lift people up and bring about equality, but just saying you're not racist does nothing. Mhmm. So, yeah, it's it's, I think, a subtle, like, difference in terminology, but a huge difference, and I think how how you can act and bring about change or at least, you know, push for change and actually help your neighbors out. Mhmm.

Jon: 10:39

Help your your community out, you know, no matter who it is. But, yeah, that's that was I think that was pretty eye opening to me. It's just kind of the difference between that.

Justin: 10:52

Mhmm. And if we go back to that that quote by doctor Beverly Daniel Tatum, it's not just about, you know, being an oppressor. It's about resisting oppression and resisting being an oppressor, being an ally, being an advocate for social justice. There's this another clip. I wasn't gonna play it initially, but I'm gonna I'm gonna let's play it.

Justin: 11:20

It's this is from a 1966 documentary called A Time to Burn. And this is a Lutheran minister, white Lutheran minister talking to Ernie Chambers, who was a barber at the time, but later became a senator in Nevada. Let's listen to this.

Jon: 11:37

This is a

Jason: 11:38

big I agree with you, perfectly. This is the basic problem.

Speaker 6: 11:42

Then what do you white people,

Jason: 11:43

I think they're better

Speaker 6: 11:44

than others. I can't solve the problem. You guys pull the strings at closed schools. You guys draw the boundaries that keep our kids restricted to the ghetto. You guys write up the restrictive covenants that keep us out of houses.

Speaker 6: 11:56

So it's up to you to talk to your brothers and your sisters and persuade them that they have a responsibility. We've assumed ours for over 400 years, and we're tired of this kind of stuff now.

Jon: 12:06

Yeah. I mean, that that I think definitely hits home what systemic racism is. I mean, it that was in the sixties. Like, nothing has changed in 50 years. Mhmm.

Jon: 12:19

Like, what the hell? Maybe a couple things have changed. Right? There's not there's no longer separate bathrooms for people with different colors of skin, but, like, beyond that Yeah. And really, there are no people aren't any better off and, like, you know, like you said with, you know, our our privilege in building transistor and saying, yeah, we did this alone.

Jon: 12:43

I mean, we didn't. We we grew up with so much more opportunity than most people.

Justin: 12:49

It's everything. It's from us getting computers Education.

Jon: 12:52

It's when

Justin: 12:53

we were kids.

Jon: 12:54

Having parents that care. Like, it and there's all these people that are like, well, you know, maybe if they just worked harder and pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, and they could they could get ahead in life. It's like they don't have the opportunity to do that because they're held back at every step of the way.

Justin: 13:11

There's There's so many structural things. And this is what I mean. This is what it is to grapple, I think, with one's own individual racism is to really wrestle with this idea of if if we really care about change, if we white people really care about change and it means that we've got to you know, doctor Erin Thomas, this is she said you can directly impact the extent to which your organization counters historical inequality, inequity, and injustice. And, you know, Transistor serves the black community. We we have customers from that community.

Justin: 14:05

We have listeners from that community. And it's just clear we haven't done enough. And that's, I think, worth wrestling with. And this is worth talking about on a SAS bootstrapping podcast because structural racism affects bootstrappers too. Think about the last conference you went to.

Justin: 14:29

Yeah. Think about who's speaking there. Think about who gets hired, who gets invested in, who gets promoted, who gets invited to those private chat groups and private Slacks, who gets to see our numbers behind the scenes, who we invite to speak at events, who gets access to our platform, who we decide to promote. The in bootstrapping and in startups, these these are all things we need to confront. And the fact that, you know, the conferences we go to are 95% white men.

Jon: 15:15

Yeah. The the services we use even, the ones that we use, you know, because one of us knows someone Mhmm. There, I would I would almost say a 100%, right. Yeah. You know, apps that someone built or

Justin: 15:32

Mhmm. Yeah. And so, one more tweet, by Christina Daniels. Again, all of these links are in the show notes. How can you help?

Justin: 15:45

By working to dismantle a system of racism from which you reap the benefits. If you are not working to do that, then you don't actually want to help. And I think, like, Bernice King said, this is a moment of opportunity. This there this is like, we could change this. But it's going to mean that people like you and me need to get uncomfortable

Speaker 6: 16:23

Yeah.

Justin: 16:23

And actually need to give something up and actually need to pull other people up. And, you can't affect systemic racism, which goes back 400 years and think it's it's not going to be easy. It's not it's not enough to just donate. It's not enough to just talk about it. It's not enough to, you know, it it's going to be it means it's gonna be like work.

Jon: 16:52

Yeah. It is. Yeah. I mean, I you know, we have massive protests going on around the world. I hope they keep going until massive change happens, whether that's during an election or after the election or in November here, it'll take a while, and I think, you know, like you said, it seems different this time, and

Justin: 17:19

Mhmm.

Jon: 17:19

Yeah. I I'm hopeful that massive change will come from it. Yeah. And that will make, you know, America and the rest of the world a better place because of it.

Justin: 17:29

Yeah. I, you know, if if there are folks listening, and I'm I'm guessing there's probably 2 groups. There's there's a group that doesn't agree with us. And, I don't know. I if you're not open to hearing this, I don't I don't I probably can't we probably can't change your mind.

Justin: 17:48

I think there's another group that feels the same way we do. Their eyes are being opened. They're seeing like, even even though, life can be hard for white people and is increasingly hard because of just the way the structures have shifted, it is still, it's different. We enjoy some structural advantages. And I think, you know, one person asked me on Twitter.

Justin: 18:22

Well, first of all, one person on Twitter disagreed with me and, whatever. Could rid of the insight. I don't if you're if you think this is all bullshit, then what I can't change your mind till you get nudged over enough times to realize it for yourself. This has to come from within you. But one person said, well, how can we actually do that?

Justin: 18:46

What what practically can we do to systematically dismantle a system of reason from which we reap the benefits? And it's part of it is that list. Who we hire, who we invest in, who we promote, who we chat with, who sees our numbers, who we invite to speak, who gets asked to our platform, who we recommend.

Jon: 19:09

Yeah.

Justin: 19:10

The the answers are all there. Like, this is the thing is that that black people have been saying these things forever. We just haven't been listening. All we have to do is is go and look, and it's right there. And, I think that is another thing that we should all be doing is listening and amplifying black voices right now.

Justin: 19:37

This is a time to listen. This isn't a time. This isn't a time to burden them with even, like, how are you doing? You know, like, everyone's checking in on them or or, like Right. It's not a time to be a burden.

Justin: 19:51

This is not a time for to ask them, you know, how we can be better. We can do our own research. We can listen. And along the lines of educating ourselves, there's a there's a great podcast series called Seeing White, and, I'll put the link in the show notes. There's also tons of books are being recommended.

Justin: 20:15

I'm reading, So You Want to Talk About Race. And what are you

Speaker 6: 20:19

what are

Justin: 20:19

you are you reading that too?

Jon: 20:20

Yeah. And I'm reading, How to be an Antiracist Okay. Which has been really good so far.

Justin: 20:26

So we can educate ourselves. We can we can It's it's, been a long time coming. And I'm embarrassed that it it took me so long, but we can do that right now. And we can also donate. We're gonna we'll have some recommendations for that later.

Justin: 20:45

But I think the the the thing for you and I that we need to really ponder, Ernie Chambers has this other great line. He he was one of the advocates for getting rid of the the death penalty in Nevada. And he said, he said, if you don't need the death penalty if you give everybody status and money. Give them status and money, and they there will be no need for death penalty. And he he's he's referring to all of the structural change all all the structural things that lead to somebody committing a crime or leading someone to desperation.

Justin: 21:28

And, you know, sometimes the the best thing you can do for somebody is give them a job. In the future, when we're hiring, that's something we need to consider. We need to think about that. And also recognizing that, you know, if our history involves us getting computers when we were 5 years old and programming basic by the time we were 6. And, you know, everything that came after that, there's gotta be a willingness to pull people up.

Justin: 21:57

And, that might mean, you know, hiring junior developers that even though that's it is way harder. Like, everybody just wants to hire senior developers because you want people to be able to hit the ground running. But the there is opportunities for us to there's opportunities for us to to give people jobs. There's opportunities for us to invest in black creators and invest in Hispanic creators. Invest like, we can invest in a diverse we can invest in diversity, basically.

Jon: 22:41

Right. Yeah.

Justin: 22:42

I think for me, as someone who's benefited massively from my network, you know, the people who gave me a chance, the people who promoted my projects, the people who I mean, even, like I don't even know if I've told this story, but, like, I got a, you know, a friend gave me a speaking gig when I really needed some money. Like, my business wasn't doing well. And that opportunity really helped. So we're definitely not even like we're we're wrestling with all this. Like we we feel it.

Justin: 23:25

And now we're thinking about these lines. How can we help by dismantling a system of racism from which we reap the benefits?

Jon: 23:35

Yeah. And there's just there's just so much to dismantle. I mean, it's, yeah, it'll be it'll be a lot of work, and it'll be uncomfortable. Mhmm. But I think you have to start somewhere.

Justin: 23:46

Yeah. If we haven't been clear, I think we'll just say we are outraged about the murder of, George Floyd and these other folks at the hands of police officers. We believe that Black Lives Matter. And we are wrestling or wrestling with our own our own involvement in a racist system. We knew this was going to be that we knew this was going to be uncomfortable.

Justin: 24:17

And we were that's we did it with that. That's just it's gonna be uncomfortable. We don't we're still wrestling, but we are committed to acting. And, and folks can hold us accountable to that.

Jon: 24:31

Yeah. I hope they do.

Justin: 24:33

Instead of reading out our Patreon supporters this week, we thought we would give you some some, just some ideas. These are, places we've been supporting. And, Yeah. So, John, why don't you read out some of those? We'll have these links in the show notes as well.

Jon: 24:52

Right. Yeah. We have the, Loveland Foundation's Therapy Fund, the Diversity in Tech Patreon, the Great Unlearning Patreon, and podcast in color Patreon.

Justin: 25:04

And, we are also open to other places we can contribute to financially. I think that's it. I'm like Bernice, King. I'm hopeful that this time it's different and that our community will look seriously at these issues and that we'll do something about it. Yeah.

Jon: 25:25

Same here.

Justin: 25:25

We'll talk to you folks next time.