The challenges of being in (the wrong) business
Hello, and welcome to build your SaaS. This is the behind the scenes story of building a web app in 20. I was gonna say 2019, but it's 2020. I'm Justin Jackson, and, my cofounder John Buda is not here today. But in his place, we have Chris Enns.
Justin:Hi. How's it going, Chris?
Speaker 2:Hello. I I was trying to do my best John Buda impersonation, but he likes to take long dramatic pause as the editor. I know, like, he I edit some of them out because they're they're he's very thoughtful. And so Mhmm. I'll have to try and remember to include some thoughtfulness in my speech today.
Justin:You've gotta yeah. Exactly. That was actually one of the the I think the coolest parts about doing a show with him is I used to well, you know this too. Just fill any available space with talking. Yeah.
Justin:And one thing Ben Orenstein, challenged me on is he said, Justin, you don't you just don't you can stop talking. Especially, if you have an editor, an editor can see a big gap of space. Yeah. And they can just edit it out. It's okay for you to give your co host or guest time to think.
Justin:Yeah. Right?
Speaker 2:Totally. That's what actually, it's funny because I learned that lesson by myself too when I I used to do a daily show by myself. And I would find myself, like, talking, talking, talking, and then running out of breath. And then, like but I keep talking. And I'm like, it took me, like, 60 episodes to realize, oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:I can just, like, pause, breathe, edit that out later. Mhmm. Sometimes we yeah. We can't see ourselves. Yeah.
Justin:Yeah. We can't we can't hear ourselves from the 3rd person.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah.
Justin:So Chris is the editor of this show, and he does editing and audio production at Lemon Productions. Is that lemon productions dotca? Yep. Yeah. Lemon Productions.
Speaker 2:Firmland, Canada.
Justin:Firmland, Canada. Good old Saskatchewan boy. Are you originally from Saskatchewan?
Speaker 2:Actually, technically, I'm a I was born in Winnipeg, but moved here. My family moved here in grade 1. So I guess my allegiances are still with the Winnipeg Jets, mainly because there's and there is no Saskatchewan hockey team. But yeah.
Justin:Which way does Saskatchewan usually go? Do they cheer for the Oilers and the Flames?
Speaker 2:There's a lot of that. Yeah.
Justin:Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Just because the Jets haven't been around for a while too. So but, yeah, definitely still hanging on to the Dale Howerchuk days.
Justin:The, Winnipeg Jets, folks, look this up right now on your phone. Go. Winnipeg Jets, retro logo. Best logo in the NHL. Best logo in any, any sports team ever.
Justin:I just love that original logo. It's so good.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. They're, like, wrapping the the text or whatever around the thing and yeah. Mhmm. With, like, the plane.
Speaker 2:It's just, like, all too obvious. Everything's just, like, spot on, almost like clip art, but, like, arranged in such a perfect eighties, late seventies kinda style.
Justin:And the the j is a hockey stick?
Speaker 2:Yeah. You just picture the marketing meeting earlier. It's like, what if? Wait, guys. I got this.
Justin:But that's what I dig about it because when was this? This would have been the eighties. Back in the eighties, you could have a design meeting and just say, let's just put all this in. Yeah. And now because of nostalgia, it's cool.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah.
Justin:Like, I think it's the coolest thing ever. But nowadays, people would be, like, rolling their eyes. There would be, know, a 100 eye roll emojis next to this design option. Yeah. Okay.
Justin:And how are the Jets doing this this season?
Speaker 2:Good. I don't I don't follow with that regularly enough to know, like, I'm not, like, checking stats every day or whatever. So
Justin:Yeah. Me too.
Speaker 2:I enjoy a hockey game when I watch it, but I don't, like, set aside weekends to watch it. So
Justin:Yeah. Actually, this is something I do wanna know from listeners. Tweet me, what is your favorite NHL team? I just do people care? Do do geeks that listen to the show watch hockey?
Justin:If you have a favorite hockey team, tweet, m I Justin or build your sass and say, this is my favorite team. Because I wanna know. Maybe people do care. Maybe we need to have more sports segments on the show. So I think one thing that would be cool today is for you and I to John and I often talk about what we've been working on.
Justin:And from your perspective, I have, like, I have a pretty good idea of what you do, David, today, but not completely.
Speaker 2:Did my wife send you this question?
Justin:So if you can ask Chris, what on earth does he do all day?
Speaker 2:You totally got my wife's voice. That's she's like a southern whatever that was accent. I gotta play that for her.
Justin:Oh, boy. I'm getting myself in all sorts of trouble here. Yeah. So what what are some of the projects you've been working on? And is podcast production most of your work?
Justin:Or is there other things too?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, like, 2 years ago or so, I I was doing websites and marketing for businesses like many people do WordPress stuff and, you know, whatever kind of anything related to the web that a business needed, I would try and, like, dabble in. Yep. And, at that time then, I was doing podcasts just for fun, that good stuff that I found, like our hobby podcast network and stuff. And so, a friend of mine, Dave Rupert, who happens to host, cohost a shop talk show, their editor was leaving, and they were looking for somebody.
Speaker 2:They knew I kinda did it and ran my business. So he just reached out and said, hey. Would you wanna try editing for us? And I, like, you know, I said sure, but I had no idea what the business model was and pricing and all that stuff. And so it is just kind of like a good growing experience where I was still doing my other stuff, with the web, but able to sort of take on a podcast and try it out as a business model.
Speaker 2:And so gradually over the last 2 years about a year ago, I think I kinda made the mental shift of just, like, I'm gonna say no to web stuff and only yes to podcast related stuff. And so to the point now where it's I still have some like, clients that are still with me from web stuff, like hosting. I I think you tweeted about, like, getting rid of some of those things and finally, like yeah. So, like, just last week, I got an email of, like, my website's down. Do you know why?
Speaker 2:And I had to, like, email GoDaddy and, like, all that stuff. And so, yeah, slowly divesting myself of that. Those those kind of clients and, yeah, as far as income, that, means anything anyways, beyond, like, hobby money these days. It's all podcast editing and consulting and producing related kinda work. So it's been fun.
Justin:How did you meet how did you meet Dave Rupert?
Speaker 2:That's just like I think my entire business model for for podcast editing business, you wanna steal my business model, is just, like, be a a goof on Twitter and talk with people and try and make them laugh. And then hopefully, they'll hire you to do the thing when they get bored of or too busy to do the thing that you wanna do. Because, I mean, that's even for you and I. Right?
Justin:Like Yeah.
Speaker 2:Whatever it was 5, 10 years ago back then, it it's still like just being goose with each other on Twitter. I'm not like pitching you at that time to like, hey, in 6 years, when you start a podcast hosting company, I'll edit your podcast or whatever. And, Yeah. Yeah. And that's honestly, like, so much of my my business has been is, like, there's referrals for sure, like, word-of-mouth.
Speaker 2:You gotta do good work. But Mhmm. I think the the biggest thing is just, like, relationship building. Unintentional, I'm I I can't do the networking event stuff. I'm not like like you with extrovert juice or whatever and, like, spewing that all over places.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, for me, it's purely just like if I can earn your trust through some dumb tweets and then, you know, whatever down the road you remember that I'm kinda funny and maybe I helped you I'll help you edit a podcast. So there's my that's my course. You can sign up for my course.
Justin:Extrovert Juice just became the title of
Speaker 2:the podcast.
Justin:Now you just you just launched a big show, and I've got so many questions about it. Tell us a little bit about the show you just launched and how did this happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So you're talking about my Lemon podcast I do with myself talking. No. That's, yeah, it's not very
Justin:big. The other one.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The other one. The so Business Dad is by Initialize Incorporated, I think they are, but Initializ is basically Alexis Ohanian, who's Ohanian? I'm not sure if I'm saying that right. I better make sure I say that right.
Speaker 2:But, the guy who based who cofounded Reddit or as some people know him as mister Serena Williams, as I found out when I tweeted and shared it on Instagram.
Justin:Yes.
Speaker 2:So he's he's got a podcast where he's interviewing other business dads, dads who are business owners or running businesses of various sizes, who generally happen to be in that similar kind of celebrity dad space, I guess, if that's a a niche. Mhmm. So, the first episode just launched was with, Hasan Minhaj of, Patriot Act on Netflix, which I love the show. And I was like, yeah. It's just the weirdest connection.
Speaker 2:Like, again, not there's no way I could have, like, mapped this out and planned it. But, like, honestly, through knowing you, and then I think Dave from chartable.com, chartableradio. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I saw I think he heard about me from you or to do your podcast. Then I was working on his podcast for Chartable Radio. And then Alexis and biz initialized invested before us any of this, but, like, they invested in Chartable. So Alexis is on, like, some sort of investor or board or whatever with Dave and reached out and said, hey. Who should I get to do a podcast?
Speaker 2:And he's like, oh, this guy, Chris, from Saskatchewan. Should, is the connection that was made. And so then the funniest thing is that, Dave, when he initially emailed me, he just cc'd me with Alexis, and I didn't, you know, you just get an email and it's like, oh, it's Dave. Hey. This person might want a podcast from you.
Speaker 2:And Yeah. And the the name was like Alexis Ohanian. I'm like, Alexa, that just sounds familiar, but I don't I couldn't place it. And so I just kinda left it. And then, you know, because you're busy and you're like, oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'll get to that, you know, because the the new client thing is always just kinda like you have to work yourself up to it. And, and then I googled the name. I was like, I'm sure I know that name from somewhere. Like, oh.
Speaker 2:So luckily, I didn't, like, ignore it for a week or, you know, reply with some smarmy well, I don't know. Not that I ever really do that.
Jon:But, yeah,
Speaker 2:I just, like, I think of the, like, path that could have happened there
Justin:and, like yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not all leads are equal.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And, like, you've experienced too, I think, with Transistor where on the one hand I was saying this to someone, but, like, on the one hand, like, it's crazy. Who knows where it might lead or or nowhere. Who knows? But, like, it's obviously just, like, a fun kind of thing to ride.
Speaker 2:On the other hand, it's just another client too that I have to, like, serve and Mhmm. Send them an invoice. And at the end of the day, I'm not going to I was joking with my sister that, because she right away texted me. She's like, I can't believe I get to be famous. You're not famous.
Speaker 2:I'm not famous. Nobody's famous. But, I'm not going to their Christmas party or something like that next year or whatever. But, like, it is still a cool thing that happens. Right?
Speaker 2:And just like with Transistor, when some famous company x
Justin:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:You know, gets your podcast hosted with you, it doesn't instantly change your life. It hopefully helps you. And in some ways, you're kind of in the weird position of, like, so great. A a new popular podcast comes along on our business plan or whatever. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:But that actually costs you a lot more money because they're too popular or whatever. It's the weird Internet economy that we live in sometimes with products like that. So it's all weird. I don't know.
Justin:But it's what's cool about it, I think that may be instructive for other people is, first of all, I mean, you've been doing this a long time. Yeah. 2nd, you mentioned, like, every kind of step forward for you has been through relationships. And relationships take time. Those connections and even being top of mind enough, because I think I remember telling Dave Zohrab, he was like, hey.
Justin:I need some to edit my show. And I'm like, oh, you gotta go with Chris. That those connections only happen because of layers and layers of history. Right?
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Justin:And then and then the third thing that I was thinking about while you were talking, there's this idea of gradually and then sudden. Have you heard that before?
Speaker 2:They like, sort of like the the one hit wonder idea, but that's actually 15 years of in the making kind of idea.
Justin:Yeah. But there's another metaphor that James Clear uses that I like, which is if you put an ice cube in a room and you gradually turn up the temperature, the ice cube doesn't change for a long time. So it's like, this is we're both Canadians, so we can do this. So it's minus 10 Celsius. Right?
Justin:And nothing changes. And then you turn it up to minus 9. Nothing changes minus 8. Nothing changes minus 7 minus 6 minus 5, minus 4. Nothing has changed with the ice cube.
Justin:Then you it gets up to 0 degrees and then 1 degree. And that's when the ice starts to melt. Right? It doesn't melt until it hits that 0 degree mark. And life is kinda like that.
Justin:You feel like you're turning up the temperature. But you're like, what? Like, nothing's happening here. That ice cube is still frozen. And you're putting in all this work, and you're investing in trying to be a good person, and you're investing in your skills, and you're and nothing is happening.
Justin:And then all of a sudden, maybe you don't even realize it, but you cross this threshold, and the ice cube starts to melt. And I think a lot of business successes like that. There's these small nudges over time. And there's a culmination point where and it might not be where you originally wanted to go. Like, there was at one point a time where I wanted to be a $1,000,000 course creator.
Justin:I'm really glad that even though that's what I really, really wanted, and I was, like, turning up the temperature on that, trying to make that happen. I'm glad that the actual culmination point of all my life and my work and everything ended up being transistor, at least for now, as opposed to that other thing. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Oh, for sure. And and somewhere, I know, like, all metaphors break down at some point if you hit hit up the hard cap with this. So I won't try and keep necessarily running with it too hard. But, like, I know for me with, like, when I was doing web and design work, similar to you with coursework maybe and stuff like that, is where it felt like I I was doing good work.
Speaker 2:I was trying my best and and, like, genuinely trying to serve clients well. But for me, switching to podcast editing, this might be helpful to someone who's, like, stuck in something. And there's like, I I can't tell you what you should pivot to, but for me, switching to podcast editing, it was like all of a sudden a gear unlocked or a gear started working, whichever way you wanna go with that, where I was doing the work and Mhmm. Emailing and communicating with clients, but every single one of those interactions and on, like, on a personal level of what I was doing, but also the interactions with the clients was better. Like, it I didn't it's not like I put in harder work or, took more care.
Speaker 2:My, like, my enthusiasm for the projects was, like, double for sure. Mhmm. And that that can only help but, that can only affect the output in a greater like, a positive way just on that alone. But, I mean, I still had to have the ability and the technical expertise to do this stuff, but I wasn't at a 110 or a 100% or whatever of ability either when I first started with it. I'm still not.
Speaker 2:But but, yeah, there like, it was just kinda like a I could feel it just in looking back. Like, it wasn't like when I first took on Shopify show that instantly everything just clicked. But looking back after a few clients, it was like, oh, yeah. This is like the this is the business I was hoping I was building with the web stuff, but Mhmm. I kept banging at it in different ways.
Speaker 2:I'll try, you know, doing social media. I'll try doing email newsletters. That'll help focus and, like, you know, like all the different things you try and, like, sort of pile on and Yeah. Build into this thing and then all of a sudden this other thing just comes along and kinda you wipe the table clean
Jason:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And start fresh on that. And it's like, ah, that's like I could just I could just see the the the road ahead all of a sudden cleared. So
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. It's like I think web web design is a good one, especially since I think a lot of listeners are probably in web development and many of them are freelancing. Web development freelancing, especially, like, doing WordPress sites is just you can get yourself into a real rut there and not realize it because you're kind of, I don't know. I mean, I know this feeling.
Justin:It's this feeling of I'm trying to make a business. I'm trying to feed my kids. I'm trying to make all this work. What can I do? Well, people need websites.
Justin:Okay. People are gonna use WordPress. Okay. And you get into now you've got that flywheel going. And it's very difficult once that flywheel is going.
Justin:Actually, maybe this isn't a flywheel. It's more like a it is kinda like a grindstone. Like, you're you're you're you're cranking this thing, and you're so busy moving that wheel that and it's taking so much of your energy and focus that you can't stop and consider. Wait a second. Is this a good market?
Justin:Wait a second. Am I do I have any margin in my life? Wait a second. Who am I competing against? You know, there's all these questions.
Justin:What kind of clients do I attract? And so many of those things are just built into the market. Like, if you are in the WordPress web development market, there's just a bunch of characteristics you have to accept, I think. You know what I mean?
Jason:I
Speaker 2:get what you're saying. And you can totally see people beside you or, like, thanks thanks to the Internet, obviously, anywhere in the world where all of a sudden you you remember that person who started around the same time as you, but all of a sudden their business takes off. But you have no idea all the variables that are going on in their life, like, good good and bad. But, like, they might have had a a connection with somebody that you didn't realize. Like, say, like, just like looking at me with podcasting, like, as if I'm I was best friends with Alexis all of a sudden and he just started podcasting.
Speaker 2:That's not obviously how it works. And, and not that, like, a a marquee client or whatever is, like, the end goal because, like I said, you still have to get business. Like, that doesn't pay my my mortgage. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:You can't pay for that with fame, unfortunately. But, but I think it it is disheartening because you, like, see that and you're like, we're all running the same race. Why are those guys, like, lapping me?
Justin:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Are those girls, you know, way ahead of me and I can't even see them anymore or whatever? And we're all doing the same thing. What's going on? And so that's where I think you flail, and that's, I think, where I definitely was sort of headed into. I told Dave and Chris with Shop Talk Show, like, when this kind of broke and they were gradually I mean, like, it's kinda like I can look back to that Shop Talk Show moment even as like a a defining moment even though I didn't think of it as a as that when it happened
Justin:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:As something that was like the first step on this journey towards this. And like like you said with transistor 2, it it could disappear in a year when if podcasting all of a sudden goes belly up as a industry or everybody that I work with decides to stop doing it, then I'm back to, I don't know, Starbucks or Yeah. Wherever we're gonna end
Justin:up, Justin. Yeah. Yeah. You and I are working at Starbucks side by side. That's right.
Speaker 2:Remembering Gloria's. Just talking.
Justin:Yeah. Talking the whole time. I actually really like that metaphor of the race. Because you said, we're all running the same race. How come some people are, you know, for their head?
Justin:And that clarifies things so well for me because if we're all running the same race against Hussein Bolt, he's gonna kick our ass every time. And you could you could say, well, this isn't fair. We're all running the same course. But it's like, no. But Hussein Bolt is built for this.
Justin:There's, like, so many characteristics of him and his context that where it makes sense that he would be beating us right now.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Justin:In the same way, why did WordPress hire Zaldman? Well, of all the people they could have chosen, it makes sense. He he he has characteristics that where it makes sense that he would have, quote, unquote, won that race. And this is why, the race you choose to enter actually matters quite a bit. So if, you know, for myself, if I was going to compete in any sport, I would have to choose sports where that made sense for my physiology, that made sense for my age, that made sense for, you know, all of these kind of factors.
Justin:And I would I would have to, you know, put all of that into my calculation of if I can be realistic here, what can I compete in and have any sort of success? I think, business and work is like that. Is there anything you wanna comment on that? I don't wanna get too far.
Speaker 2:Maybe what I would just add is at the risk of sounding too, like, all you have to do is switch to the other sport or other race, whatever analogy we're gonna keep with. Mhmm. And then you'll it'll click. Like, I think there's there's certainly I I look back on and I wish I would've could've figured out sooner, obviously, and spared myself some pain and anguish and frustration and financial insecurity and all that stuff. But also there's a certain amount of value and and experience and worth in going through that struggle because I was better prepared for.
Speaker 2:I knew how to have a, whatever, invoices set up already and how to bill clients and how to email with them. Like, not that yeah. Obviously, we all know how to email, but just, like, how to do some of the basics of running a business. And and I was in place. That was all set up, so I wasn't trying to figure that all out again now with switching podcasting.
Speaker 2:So I I I can think of folks who I know who have asked me about getting into podcast production or editing or or recording their podcast and how to be successful in it. And I think part of it is, like, it's gonna suck. It's gonna struggle. Just like if you started playing basketball today Mhmm. And played basketball before, it's gonna be hard.
Speaker 2:And it's gonna feel like you're not very good at it. And all sorts of people are way better than you. And you some of those things are just gonna be fun hobbies that you do. So Yeah. That's what I I almost had resigned myself to podcasting being a thing that I just did as a hobby.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And it's true. Like, the recording, obviously, I'm talking with you on your professional business podcast right now. But like most of the times when I record myself, it's just a hobby. It's for fun.
Speaker 2:It's for goofs or friends or whatever. I'm not making money on that. But and I get I have to sort of, like if I had a a lot of ego with it, I'd be, like, depressed maybe that I'm not my voice isn't the one being heard. I have to, like, edit Alexis's voice or whatever, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And other people and like your stupid voice and stuff. It might be better that people aren't listening to mine. Right? I don't tell, clients. Your voice is stupid, bro.
Speaker 2:Probably not. That's not business 101 anyway.
Justin:You clearly just said my stupid voice.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's okay. I'll edit it out. And it'll never have happened.
Justin:Oh, no. You gotta keep that in. That was hilarious. I I think along with this, the one challenge is I I often get into an idea, like, that we're exploring right now. That's usually along kind of one plane.
Justin:So it's a simple idea. We have this metaphor of the race, and we're exploring that idea. And usually, the pushback I'll get is, well, that's too simplistic. And the point is, yes, of course, it's simplistic. Of course, there are other variables here.
Justin:Of course, there are other, vectors to this. Another vector to this whole conversation is that luck does play a role. And luck specifically in this idea of, a lot of the the times in my life where I made progress happened because someone took a chance on me, reached down, and pulled me up. I I think back to 2,007, I've been working in the nonprofit world, and I, you know, was deciding to change careers. And 2,007, I'm 27 years old.
Justin:I had, you know, at that point, 8 or 9 years experience, as a manager of this nonprofit. And then I go into the real world and realize no one cares. And feeling like I used to be this competent person and then going out into the world and feeling like, well, nobody cares. Nobody wants that. It was debilitating.
Justin:And, I remember applying to work at an Apple store. I remember, you know, just try I was gonna sell, windows and doors for this manufacturing company. And those would have been terrible fits and might have put me on a path that could have ended somewhere very different. And then kind of through the clouds, this, guy, Greg Oldring, kind of put his hand through and pulled me up and said, hey. I want you to come work at the software company I have.
Justin:And that him taking a a chance on me, giving me dignity, and giving me responsibility at a high level, and, giving me regular raises and all these things, that was a huge thing for me. So that vector exists as well. Right? And there's a little bit of privilege in there. There's a little or maybe a lot of privilege.
Justin:Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. Now there's thing there's reason there's a reason he reached out to me. Right?
Justin:It's not like it was completely random. I I think acknowledging that we do need other people, that one's a little bit trickier because, really, all you can do is kind of increase your luck surface area. Like you said earlier, like, you know, you you you're someone who's been involved on the Internet, reaching out and building relationships with people for a long time. And then it all came to fruition for this one deal. Right?
Speaker 2:Right.
Justin:And, I think that's really all you can do unless you have other ideas.
Speaker 2:Well, nothing else has really worked for me. So Yeah. I think that's where that's where part of the struggle is. I know. Because you look at thought leaders and and course people and, you know, I bought courses and, like, oh, if I just, like, blogged every day and then wrote a newsletter and then had this other thing and and did this, then that'll get me the traction I need to and, like, there's no question, like, I I I am a, at most, like, once every 2 months blogger on my business site.
Speaker 2:And I'm just, like, for 2020, I'm trying to, like, just step up a little bit and have a little bit of fun on Instagram, on my business Instagram account. Lemon production CA, I think, is the account there. I can't remember. That's how I'm doing my own marketing. None of that really I've gotten one client through Instagram and trying to, like, play the whole hashtags and whatever, doing a bit of advertising on there.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. So, like, that's I was ready to give up on that, and I still don't think it's for me necessarily. But, like, all those and you're trying to follow, like, well, this guy over here and this girl over here is doing this, and you're trying to, like, you you collect all those things from all those people where they're just focusing on the 1 or 2 things. Right? But you as the person trying to, like, get to that next level, you're focusing and trying to, like at least for me, I was like, I'll just grab all of them and throw everything against the wall and doing none of them well.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, that's where, like, I think for me recognizing and looking back, the relationship building luck for sure, It's hard to say, like, would would Dave have taken your recommendation if I was, like, someone who didn't fit his view of what a podcast editor should look like. I don't even know if he saw my picture. Obviously, he knew as a guy. So whatever that means, like, he seems like a really great guy. And so, but Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's it's it's interesting to think about and and certainly something that's a part of the whole process. I wouldn't discount it in any regard. And hopefully, it's changing for the better in that regard for people coming up these days.
Justin:Well, I I think this is the thing. I think so what you just described, most people in the world are trying to just play the game in that way of, you know, if I just post every day on Instagram and if I use the right hashtags and if I and I think most of that doesn't work. I think that is the point. It works for some people when they have the existing traction because so so many of those are games of, influence begets more influence, and success begets more success. And so if you are at the bottom of that pile, if you are, you know, in the the 99% of noise, it's gonna be very difficult to get into the 1% or 10% or whatever it is, That that upper area where people are paying attention.
Justin:And I think at our level, the thing that does work the best is investing in relationships because that's something we can all do. We can all, over time, build relationships on the Internet. Even if you're an introvert, we can, all over time, do good work for people that helps them to recommend us to others. If we're gonna optimize anything, I think we need to optimize for that. If I was gonna, like, push you in any way, I think the where I would push you is to get out of your comfort zone a little bit more and go to, like you should probably show up at I don't know if I you should show up at podcast movement, but you you should probably be getting out of your bubble, your real world bubble a little bit more and actually going and shaking some hands and, you know, not maybe not networking, but meeting people in a way that is, like, in a way that happens at conferences and meetups and other things.
Justin:There's a serendipity to that that I think can be helpful for folks.
Speaker 2:That's one of the struggles I found with my like, being, you know so anybody who's Canadian out there or remote from, you know, the epicenter of technologies in the US, like, whether it's California or, I don't know, the various sort of major centers, Texas and stuff seem to be. When you're removed from that, it's hard to, like because I I feel sometimes even with this, like, business dad, like, I'm replaceable really to them. Like, I've had a great relationship. I got an awesome, you know, recommendation from them. Kudos and thanks, like, MVP on the project from one of their his support team or whatever.
Speaker 2:So that's awesome. Like, I'm that's great. And but at the same token, I'm just a guy, an an avatar on the Internet right now to them. And and for many of my clients, that's the case. And, yeah, it's something that I've been talking about, like, trying to, like, figure out how without, like, spending all the money that I basically earn from a client, how can I, like, make that next level of, like, in in person, in reality, meet space Mhmm?
Speaker 2:It's called or whatever, kind of thing? Because I I actually see I don't see myself needing unless I go to the next level of, like, hiring, I guess, and building bigger that way. But, I I would love to, like, maintain a good base of clients at some number, 15 or 20 clients or whatever it is that I kinda max out at, and then just build into those. But obviously knowing that eventually, you know, build your SaaS might stop producing, so I do have to find a new client there. But building those relationships really well that I do have rather than just, like, more and more and more and more.
Speaker 2:Kinda like the Paul Jarvis approach too of, like and you guys too have talked about on the show. Like, well, if I want 6 hours of work per day and that's enough, then what do I need to do to do that? And then make it make sense financially and how many clients and all that kind of stuff. So
Justin:Yeah. And and it could be, for example, for you, especially, it might just be figuring out which client does it make the most sense for me to visit? And when I say the most sense, I mean, like, that's the most economical for me to get to. And just so, like, when I was in New York, I made sure that I met with Dave Zohrab. I made sure I met with Willie Morris.
Justin:I made sure that these folks that I knew at at Spotify, I reached out and and got a meeting with them. I probably I mean, I had a lot of meetings because I like it. But you could get, like, most of that leverage just from meeting with 1 or 2 people in a given space. And it might just, you know, like, it might be figuring out when's the next time, the CSS tricks folks are going to be in a city and you just make sure you're in that city and that, you know, hey, when's a good time for us to hang out? Yeah.
Justin:Because the face to face stuff really does matter. I mean, there's people I met at conferences ages ago. It's it's funny to see how they're like, they've just, you know, they've their career has done all sorts of crazy things since then. But we still have this connection of, oh, yeah. We went to that Greek restaurant together.
Justin:And so it's not weird for me to reach out to them and say, hey. Yeah. You know, how's it going? Why why don't we work on this together or something?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's funny because the the guy who does the recording for business for initialize, he's, like, a videographer guy by trade. Does amazing video work and stuff with clients. He's based out of New Jersey, I think. So he drives into New York to, like, meet know, whenever they're doing a recording with somebody or flies with with them to other places, gets to go around the world.
Speaker 2:So I was, like, chatting with him. I'm like, hey. Russ Rowe is his name. He's on Instagram. You can find him.
Speaker 2:He's a good guy. I was like, hey. If it ever works out, like, you wanna do the video and I can focus on the audio for you, you know, let me know and we'll and he's, like, asking me. He's like, so where do you usually work out of? Like, what area are you in, and and, like, where are you based usually?
Speaker 2:I'm, like, Saskatchewan, like, all the time. It's not like I'm usually based in New York, but sometimes I'm in San Francisco and Ireland. Yeah. You know? It's just like no.
Speaker 2:So but, anyways, it's just like it's just funny. Like, different mindset, different focus, but, like, yeah, totally awesome. Can I, you know
Justin:And it might make sense for you to do a few on sites where you say, you know, for a good chunk of change, I'll fly to New York? I'll set up your audio stuff. I'll make sure that your first episodes, you know, are recorded properly. I'll, edit everything. We'll tweak the process.
Justin:I had to get over this this hump of not wanting to jump on a plane just because plane I don't like planes. I don't I don't really like flying at all. And I think I was also just in this mindset of, like, no. I just gotta keep my head to the ground. I gotta keep going.
Justin:I gotta keep thinking this through.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Justin:Once I started opening myself up to, no, I'm gonna ask them if I should just fly down and meet with them. I have another challenge now which is the I'd I I I'm really concerned about climate change. So I have to figure out how to how to get around that. But,
Speaker 2:I know. I was thinking you're kinda being hypocritical about the the tweets and stuff. You've been talking about climate change, but they're telling me to fly for
Justin:I know.
Speaker 2:For a weekend. That's funny because, like, in in Canada, I know, like, driving for 7 hours, like, for us to Calgary. Let's say where I am. It's a 7 hour drive to Calgary, which is next, like, bigger center. Like I mean, sorry.
Speaker 2:There is other closer ones. No offense to Edmonton. But, like, Edmonton, Calgary, whatever. They're, like, 5 hours, 7 hours more. That's nothing for us.
Speaker 2:Like, we would do that for the weekend. And but, like, yeah, to fly down to New York or whatever, same amount of time, theoretically, Obviously, a little more expensive, but somehow that feels like next level, you know, crazy. I'd be curious for anybody out there. Like, if you're listening to this, you're you've you've got your business. You're at, let's say, 80 to 90% capacity.
Speaker 2:You're it's just a solo. It's just you. What sort of that next thing you did to unlock, like, not profit, but just the next level of your business? Is it hiring? Like, I have an accountant that I work with sometimes, but I don't always.
Speaker 2:Or is it hiring an employee? Is it and I obviously it'll depend on your business type and stuff. But yeah. Tweet at Justin wherever and
Justin:Yeah. Or or tweet at I Chris. You you have a better, Twitter handle than I do. I should have just done I Justin.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Funny story. Because, like, on the last, so I've been watching you know, like, you watch, like, everyone you sort of think, oh, somebody famous or whatever is talking about the thing that you're involved with. Yeah. Follower accounts got a skyrocket then or whatever.
Speaker 2:Right? Like social currency, all that stuff. And like so then I see him he tweeted or or a post on Instagram, like, an actual post, not just a story about the podcast. It's, like, thanks to my initialized team at initialize. Thanks to at chartable radio.
Speaker 2:And thanks to Chris ends, which he put on there, like, the text is there, but not my handle. He doesn't know the handle. I mean, I don't expect him to like, search through all the Chrises on Instagram or whatever and find me. But, yeah, I was just like I was like, you know, you know,
Justin:But but, eventually, the name Chris ends will just be so recognizable that it won't matter. Yeah. Yes. I think Yeah. You know, to to kinda wrap this up, because I think it's been interesting having your perspective, because it really does come down, people are gonna hate me for this.
Justin:I know. So I know there's some fans out there. Thanks to everyone who who emails me and says, you know, I I appreciate what you're saying. The market you choose really does matter. Number 1, that sets the foundation.
Justin:It is the market that you're in or the business that you're in if you don't want if you don't like the word market. I just wrote this this post called, justinjackson.ca/margin. And I think a lot of folks are in situations where they have very little margin, And they're trying to add on more stuff to their business. And I used the example of, like, I had the skateboard shop in my early twenties. And the core business wasn't working.
Justin:Our margins are, like, actual profit margins sucked. The complexity of ordering and inventory management was very difficult. We had huge competition, like, big box stores, and there's this thing called the Internet that was, like, all of a sudden making a bigger and so the core business was already difficult. It didn't matter what we added on top, what strategy or tactics or whatever. And it feels like a lot of folks operate at that level where they're like, the this core thing isn't working.
Justin:And so I just gotta add more on. But that's the problem. The problem isn't finding something that you can, like, iterate on top of, or you just need to spin more plates. Like, if you were just spinning one more plate, maybe then things will all improve. It I don't know about your experience, but it just it doesn't work.
Justin:Right? And Yeah. I this is something I think we all need to consider, which is often when you're in that space and things can feel hopeless, like, you can feel like, well, there's no way I can get out of the business I'm in. So I'm just going to double down on it even though it's not working. That's the worst of the two options.
Justin:It it psychologically, it feels safer because you already know where you're at. But the but the the better option is to try to get out and find something different as opposed to just optimize this thing that you're this I I don't know what the the metaphor is. I I got a really bad one. Like, I I was gonna say I was gonna say optimize the horse you're already riding. It's like
Jason:this is how my brain thinks. Yeah. It's
Speaker 2:like you're you're riding
Justin:this dumb horse, and it just won't listen. And it's slow, and it only has 2 legs. And you're like, man, I just gotta figure out how to I gotta feed this horse better hay. It's like, no. It doesn't work like that.
Justin:Just find a different horse.
Speaker 2:There's must there's probably some correlation. I'm sure if someone could do, like I'll have to get Dave on this, like, chartable analytics of, like, people who were who grew up somehow connected, like, churchy stuff. Mhmm. Like, I know you did, and I I have. And, and, like, speaking at all related to church stuff.
Speaker 2:And it's just like, metaphors are, like, that's Jesus. Yes. You gotta use metaphors. Metaphor metaphor the crap out of everybody, and then they'll believe.
Justin:Although I I'll argue that that's just human that's just built in. Like
Speaker 2:Yeah. It does help explain a
Justin:few things.
Speaker 2:I don't think I
Justin:don't think optimizing the horse you're on is the best catch line. But
Speaker 2:1st John. Yeah. 1st first Justin. 316.
Justin:Optimize the horse you're on. Don't optimize the horse you're on. That's the problem. You know? And what do you think, like because I know you've been doing stuff for a long time, and there's been times like you said, you were stuck building WordPress sites.
Justin:What is the answer? Like, how do you get out of that when you might be in a bad business where, you know, you have no margin, where things aren't really working, but you're just doubling down on it because it is the only thing you have. Because I can understand, like, people don't wanna hop on another horse. Like, the horse you're on might be at least moving you somewhere. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. In responding to that that kind of question, I hate I hate hearing people whose their experience, they prescribe that as the solution for others or conversely, someone listening or ascribes, I guess, maybe their someone else's solution as their solution.
Jason:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And because I know I was in that boat, like I said before, like, grabbing at well, Justin's doing this thing over here, so I should try and do that thing as well when clearly is not me. Like, even the course creation stuff. I I love the mechanics of that. I love the idea of, like, how do you set up, like, a course thing in Podia or whatever. Like, I think that's a I look at Podia every couple months.
Speaker 2:I'm like, this is amazing that we can do this. I need to sell a course just based on the fact that there's this cool tech out there. Mhmm. Never mind that I have no thing to actually teach right now, but I just wanna do it. And same thing with, like, community building or whatever.
Speaker 2:Like, you you kinda, like
Jason:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Grab onto those things. And and if you're at all like me, you you can easily dream of the the end result and skip over the work and the part where, like, you completely fail at the thing along the way. And so, like, for I think, like, without beating it the horse to death, to keep mixing metaphors, You know, like, relationships is gonna be the key thing depending on the people around you to a point to, like, help you identify when a thing is not working and when it is, because that's like, my wife would push me, on the business, like, needing to she could see that I wasn't giving it a 100% or whatever, trying as hard as I could. And I knew that I probably wasn't, but I couldn't figure out why I couldn't figure what to give. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And so if you have either your spouse or friends around you that you depend on or trust, you've talked about the mastermind group and stuff, those kind of things that you're in, which always feels like a douchey thing to me. But, like, it still is, like, at at its core, it's just, like, people you trust to, like, say, hey. This is what I'm trying. Tell me if I'm on the right path. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And you would take their criticisms and their suggestions with the full weight that you should, not just take offense at it that they would dare say something negative about you and smoke up your butt Mhmm. Instead. Yeah. And that's and you can't get that from Twitter. Like Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, you can with somebody like like you and I now at this point and probably 3 years ago or whatever, we could have, like, I could have pinged you and said, hey. What about this? Because just like even before we started recording, you don't yeah. I don't show everything on Twitter and social. I try to be, like, me, but it's not the complete me.
Speaker 2:And so advice from Twitter is is tough that way. Like, unless you're, I think, talking with people like this on a Skype call or in some sort of, like, Slack group or whatever, or ideally in the real world, you're meeting in for coffee and just, like Yeah.
Justin:I think that's actually a really good point because I don't know. The back channels sorry. It's not just the back channels. A lot of the successful people I know are talking amongst themselves all the time, asking for feedback all the time, second guessing their gut all the time, that has been very instructive for me to get messages from people, people I respect going, hey. I'm kinda worried about this.
Justin:Do you think this is the right you know, I'm on the right track. And go
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Justin:Wow. This person isn't just, like, confident all the time. They have the same questions you and I do. Right?
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Justin:You need to have folks that you can DM on Twitter. Right? And you need to have folks that you can bug on Skype, and you have to feel comfortable doing it. Like, hey. Like, don't feel you need to build a relationship to a point where you can feel like, oh, I can talk to that person.
Justin:Yeah. I think we're gonna have to wrap it up because we're already around 50 minutes. This is good, though. I I was glad this I think people will like this because there is this getting other perspectives when you're trying to pursue any sort of dream, and you're only hearing, like you said, one thing. Yeah.
Justin:I think this is good. So thanks to Chris for being here. Lemonproductions.ca. One last thing I'll say about Chris is if you are thinking about creating a podcast in 2020, contact Chris. And I would say I don't know what packages Chris has, but order get him to prepay for him to do 4 to 5 episodes.
Justin:Just it's it's gonna be whatever. Whatever it is, it's gonna be worth it for you to do it this way. Just think I'm gonna do this right. I'm gonna pay that amount to get 4 or 5 episodes edited professionally. That is going to be the best way to start.
Justin:You're actually gonna start on the right foot. You're gonna have good quality audio. You're not gonna have to worry about editing it yourself. It's just worth it. And then if you wanna edit it after that, you can.
Justin:But I would contact him and just order 4 or 5 episodes. Do you do, like, 4 or 5 episode packages or something?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I was gonna say, like, the one recent one that, there's been a few different people I've started with that they're doing an interesting things, approaches to the podcasting thing beyond the just typical. So, like, Latitude with, Brian. Zavastoski. I've I've never said his name out loud.
Speaker 2:So Yeah. That's right. Sorry, Brian. But, he did, like, 10 episodes, 5 interviews, and then 5, follow-up, like, takeaways, I guess, from the previous episode. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And so the the interview is a 30 to 45 minute typical, you know, like, conversation podcast. And then the the follow-up is kinda just like him thinking now about it a little deeper and pulling some quotes out and putting that together. So that's like and he's just doing, like, a 10 episode run right now and then sees where he's gonna see where it goes. And that, like, works great both for him, also for me, obviously, on the business side, just, like, setting everything up for a client. You do it, like, for 2 episodes.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like a it's tough to get all the gears in motion and then just shut it down again. Yeah. Not being tied to, like, you guys are on the treadmill of indefinitely releasing episodes, which is great for me Yeah. And for you. Like, it is a good thing.
Speaker 2:But also, like, 25 episodes of a show, perfectly fine. There's no like, there's literally nothing wrong with that. And do it biweekly
Justin:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And record maybe interviews or it's just you and your founder or whatever it is. Don't feel like you have to be on this, like, weekly treadmill necessarily, which has its benefits, but also you can do it other ways, I guess, is all I'm trying to say. And so another new one that I just started with is the Ladybug podcast. There are 3 developers. It's doing Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like, really smart smart women doing pod podcasts about development and, just different voices in it. It's it's fun fun to hear and fun to work on. And and they're also, like, they have their own it's just interesting now to see sort of behind the scenes with them, how they put put together their show notes and put together their sort of plan for the podcast and things. It's very different from, like, the way Chris and Dave do on Shop Talk. And it's totally they're both right for them.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. But there's not, like, one standard way of doing it. And so, yeah, if that's interesting to you, I guess I am, like, running out of room in my clients. And so at some point, it will max out. I was joking with Chris and Dave.
Speaker 2:I was like, my my rate actually now is a 100 times at what it was just because of of business data. I'm not sure, obviously. But
Justin:any it's worth it. Anyway, it's worth it for to definitely get a hold of Chris if you can and get him to do some episodes. Let me give a shout out to our Patreon supporters. Here we go. Ward from mem oh, Chris, you gotta get ready for you know, it's coming.
Justin:You're you're gonna do it. Are you ready? Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think so. I think I got it.
Justin:Ward from memberspace.com. Eric Lima, James Sours from user input dot I o, Travis Fisher, Matt Buckley from nice things dot I o, Russell Brown, Evander Sassy, Pied Rumaschembeker from clearstack.io, Noah Pralle eventonehq.com, Robert Simplicio at Simplicio dot com, Colin Gray, eliteu.com, Josh Smith, hellosift dotcom. Ivan Kerkovic, Brian Ray, Shane Smith. He has podcast dev.transistor.fm, Austin Loveless, Simon Bennett, sassreality.com, Michael Sittfer, letterjoy.com, Paul Jarvis and Jack Ellis, Dan Buddha, Dan Buddha dot com, Darby Fray, Somoria, Gusto. That's the big crowd.
Justin:No. No. The bicrowd.com. Dave Young, Magnus Rush, Brad from Canada, Sammy Schuichert, Mike Walker, Adam Devander, Dave Junta.
Speaker 2:Junta.
Justin:Yeah. That was great. That was great. That was and I know some people have been waiting so long to hear that. I got I got messages from folks saying, when's the show coming out?
Justin:Because I need to hear Junta. Junta. And finally, Kyle Fox, get rewardful.com. Thanks for listening everyone, and we'll see you next week.
