Marie Poulin: Maybe you shouldn't start a software company
Hello, and welcome to build your SaaS. This is the behind the scenes story of building a web app in 2020. I am not John Buda. That's my my partner. I'm Justin Jackson.
Justin:And John's not here today, but I got a great guest, Marie Flynn. She's a digital strategist, the cofounder of Okidoki. She also has a software platform called Doki. And lately, she's been killing it, doing all sorts of work with Notion webinars and courses and content. Welcome, Marie.
Justin:Thanks for being here. What have you been doing lately? What you, I you've been doing Notion stuff, a lot of Notion stuff.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of Notion going on.
Justin:So what are what exactly are you doing for Notion right now? Like, you're you've got a course.
Speaker 2:I do. We're doing office hours. So every week for the last every week, probably since early September, I've been running some sort of casual open office hours for them. Every Friday morning, whoever wants to come on, and we'll often bring on, like, a guest expert who is using Notion in some interesting way or wants to share a tool or a template, and it's, like, it's pretty casual. It's kinda like sometimes interview style, sometimes it's how to.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, that kind of all stemmed because I just I did a webinar just for fun that was like, holy crap. You need to see this tool. This is amazing. Here's how I'm using it. And the COO saw it and was like, who is this girl who knows how to use our tool better than our team does?
Speaker 2:What the heck? And he's like, can we chat? And it it kinda blew up from there.
Justin:Yeah. So so you have an arrangement with Notion. Like, they are one of your clients now.
Speaker 2:No. Not really. So our our relationship is pretty informal at the moment. We're we're, like, in discussions of, like, what could it look like? What would Marie like to do?
Speaker 2:What are the possibilities?
Justin:So Interesting.
Speaker 2:If I was like, let's work full time. Let's do this. Like, they would they would be totally down in a heartbeat. But Interesting. I'm in a process where I'm figuring out, like, okay.
Speaker 2:What do I really want? Long term, short term, what's possible? So
Justin:Oh, okay. So that'll make that'll make for some good conversation. So this is still in some ways quite nascent then. It's like, it this is still pretty new in terms of figuring out what it's gonna look like.
Speaker 2:Definitely. Yeah. Like, there was just such a a fire around it, and I was like, woah. This, like, fast moving current is just totally pulling me over here, and I was like, okay. I guess I'll, like, start a YouTube channel.
Speaker 2:I'll I'll start answering some of those questions that people keep asking me. And people were, just emailing me, messaging me on Twitter asking me questions all the time and I'm like, okay, how does this work? I'm not tech support, but I do know a lot about the tool and I love it and I love sharing it. So what does this look like? Started the YouTube channel.
Speaker 2:That kind of exploded. And so between that and the office hours, people were just starting to see me as an authority in that space and as a helpful person. So then a a course emerged, right? So I was like, okay, next natural step, let's get a course going. And then that kind of exploded.
Speaker 2:So it has continued to be like, woah. Where is this going? What's happening?
Justin:Wow. I mean, this is why one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you because lately, I've been having this feeling I think at one point, maybe I was part of that, like, rah rah crowd, like, everybody should start a SaaS. And, I remember you and I talking you had you had recently started working on Okie. Right? That was is Okie the
Speaker 2:name is our software. There's another whole thing. Software. Yeah.
Justin:You you had recently started working on Oki.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Justin:And, and I remember it being a little bit jealous even because I didn't have a SaaS. I just had a course. And I remember hearing, like, you and Ben were working on this thing. And, since, you know, we you and I had met and talked about that, I tried to start a few SaaS's and they didn't work. And then, you know, this is probably since then, this is my 3rd time with Transistor.
Justin:Yeah. But there's also just this feeling of maybe everybody shouldn't start a SaaS.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Admittedly, I'm biased because I'm not a developer too. So, like, I I don't know. I see how much effort goes into if you're building a SaaS, you're also the marketing person, you're the customer support, like, you know all this, right? You've had to do all of it from the ground up.
Speaker 2:So I think when we started, we had no idea, like, what that was going to entail. We'd only ever done client services, so you're like, oh, suddenly we have to either figure out how to do this stuff or hire someone to do it. It's a whole other world. Right?
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. And so what how do you think your feelings have evolved since working on Doki to now? How do you feel about, you know, SaaS and whether that's the right path for you or for other people. How do you think about that now?
Speaker 2:Yeah. The things that popped up for us along the way okay. Obviously, lots of lots of mistakes were made along the way. Incredible incredible learning. I feel like that's just, like, entrepreneurship school.
Speaker 2:Like, just it's incredible learning. But some of the things we didn't really think about were, like, from a business model perspective, you're looking at a low price point, low touch, and, like, relatively high effort activities. Like, you know, Ben was almost full time on Doki, and then it's like a $29 a month fee. And then it's the second someone is using up the customer support. It was like, wait a second.
Speaker 2:Like, this is not super sustainable. And previously to that, all of our engagements with clients were, like, 3 years long, like, working really deep, long term, high retainers. So to go from that to, like, this really low price point where, you know, you don't even see the person, it's such a low low impact. It's sort of it was a totally different way of working that was not what we were used to. And it was a challenge.
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, so much of this is this is hard stuff to navigate. Right? Because you and I are people that like to share what we're learning.
Justin:We like to, you know, share our journey. And there there's part of that, which is wanting to encourage people to go after, you know, what they want. Like, what are they trying to achieve?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Justin:And so there's a part of me that is like, no. I think, yeah, you have you wanna build a software company? Like, go and build a software company. But, yeah, I I just I'm wondering now if if there's some other factors people need to consider. Like, even what you were saying about your work with Notion now, and you just felt like you were getting pulled by this current.
Justin:You know, acknowledging that business is difficult partly because you're almost, like, looking and waiting for that moment to happen when you get swept away.
Speaker 2:There's some traction. There's some yeah. No. I I think, yeah, you kinda have to be all in on your idea. Right?
Speaker 2:And and, like, I'll be I'll I'm totally fine to, like, be quite vulnerable and tell you just some of the things that have come up for me in the process.
Justin:But part
Speaker 2:of the reason we built the tool we did was because I was doing a lot of web design work with people who had online courses. And I was doing all this integration work, hooking up payments to this and that. Like, there were just so many moving parts that I was doing from a technical standpoint. And we were like, oh, there's gotta be an easier way to do this. So, like, let's build a tool.
Speaker 2:Like, let's spend a year building a tool to make this this one part of our business easier, which is, you know, so funny looking back. But, so we didn't even build the tool for ourselves first. We immediately went to, like, oh, and then this is a thing we can sell and market it. But we were trying to solve so many problems. I think SaaS is that I think work really well with, like, a small person team is, like, you're solving a really specific problem, and it's a very specific problem that the market wants.
Speaker 2:And so we're like, oh, as soon as you're talking online courses, it's like, well, does it have landing pages? Does it do payment integration? Does it do does it integrate video? Can I upload my video? So for our first SaaS, it was like, holy crap.
Speaker 2:We've bit off an elephant. Like, we weren't even trying, like, let's make one part of this process easy. We're like, we'll just do the entire entire thing, which is bananas looking back. Yeah. And then it was part of that too, being in the online course space, we started to attract people that were thinking like everyone wants that leveraged life, they want like more ease and, you know, revenue in their sleep.
Speaker 2:That's what the sort of SaaS dream is, right? Like I'm making money in my sleep. But we started to attract an audience that was thinking, like, an online course is gonna save their business. Right? Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Or, like, if they just sign up for the platform, somehow, like, the course is gonna magically materialize.
Justin:Mhmm. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so it felt like we were we were attracting an audience that really wanted a quick fix, but weren't didn't have the tools and capacity to do the work. So then you have people signing up for your platform that are, like, taking 6 months before they're, like, actually ready. And I don't know if you see this on the on the podcast side where someone signs up and they're, like, not actually ready to launch their podcast yet.
Justin:Yeah. A ton. Yeah. Oh, man. There's so much in that that I just need to unpack.
Justin:We'll see if I can remember everything. I mean, one thing is you just bring up this idea that there are so many vectors that you need to get right with this. You need, founder market fit. Like, you need to like your market. You need to have some sort of advantage in that market, hopefully, some history.
Justin:Then you need founder product fit, meaning, like, this product. And in that sense, I'm mostly thinking, like, do the fundamentals of this business align with your values? Are they gonna get you where you wanna go? Is this product a good product for you to work on? Like, do you have some sort of and, actually, maybe that's a different vector.
Justin:Like, maybe it is. Does this business model align with me, like, founder business model fit, founder product fit, and then and then you have the, you know, product market fit and, like, all these other things. Like, there's this whole spectrum of things that need to come together. And it's no wonder that it's so difficult for people to, like yeah. It's just it it when you jump into it, and you're like, okay, here I go.
Justin:And you've got that momentum, and you've got that enthusiasm, and you're motivated. But you can't it's almost like you can't beat this machine. Like, unless everything is checked off and working, it's gonna be tricky. Right?
Speaker 2:Totally. And and I would find myself it's like the marketing thing to do would be, like, making content that's how to get your online course launched faster. And so I did actually I did produce a course that was like run your learning launch, like just ship a rough thing that you can learn from. And that was the thing that, again, building a course to support a SAS to try and get more people activating and launching their courses. But I was so frustrated by this problem of people not taking action and delaying and procrastinating that I'm writing blog posts like an online course is not gonna save your business, which is, like, not the thing that's gonna get them signing up for the the software, but it was the thing I really believed in.
Speaker 2:So I felt conflicted about I don't think I can ethically, in a way, go all in and being, like, online courses are the thing that are gonna save your business. And I say this as someone who makes a lot of money with online courses. From what I've seen of other people, I in some ways, I feel like I'm in a in a top percent of, like, luck. What do you wanna call it luck or just alignment or finding the right problems and whatever? But it even launching online courses is its own its own set of challenges.
Speaker 2:Like, does the market want this? Is the is the way I'm delivering this, Does it make sense? Like, you've done courses. You've done software. Like, you've you've probably seen some success really easy with some, and then it kinda misses the mark with others.
Justin:I mean, maybe this is also why you like Notion so much because people are already in motion searching for Notion. Like, they're already, they want like, the the bar, the threshold you need to cross for I'm going to be go from basic Notion user to, like, pro, that bar is way that threshold is way smaller than I'm gonna go from no business to a profitable business that will support my family. Yep. And I wonder if that's one of the reasons you're even enjoying the work is because you've got these people in motion, and it's you can actually have a meaningful impact on most of them.
Speaker 2:It's like tiny breakthroughs. It's like, oh, let's build a note taking system. Let's build it. Like, you can almost solve a 100 different types of problems in Notion. So I was like, cool.
Speaker 2:Which one do we wanna focus on? Let's, you know, let's build you
Justin:a dashboard.
Speaker 2:Let's build you a bullet journal. Like, what do you want? It's it's, like, so open ended. The possibilities are almost endless, so you can really narrow in and be like, let's just solve this one problem, not a 100 different ones. Let's just focus here.
Justin:Yeah. I mean I mean, that's gonna be the that's gonna be the the tricky part for if you think about, like, the again, this this threshold idea is interesting. Going from 0 to 1 in business, you you're already so whether that's launching a course or starting a SaaS or starting a consulting company, going from 0 to 1 is where you lose, like, 95% of the people. Because it it's just difficult. It's again, there's so many things that need to align.
Justin:And the the the number of people who go from 0 to 1 is very small. And then then, again, the people that can go from 1 to 2 is Keep dropping off. Is dropping off. Right? And so I think a business education, whether that's business education and also even, like, aspirational business platforms And to a certain extent, like, course platforms, podcasting platforms, email platforms, blogging platforms are all in this category, membership platforms, because most of our customers are are going to be aspirational.
Justin:Right. And that and there is gonna be, like, our numbers aren't live anymore. But if you look at the open startups for ConvertKit and other, like, membership programs, you know, there's a a regular rate of churn every month. It's just some people aren't going to make it. It's it's it's inherent in that market.
Justin:Yeah. And there's definitely days where I wish, like, like, yeah, I wish I could just teach people, like, Notion, and then I can I know that if they came to me, I have a high degree of confidence that when they walk away, they're going to be better off in a way that they can use every day for a long time? Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's another good point too. It's like a thing that someone uses every day. And, like, I'm not having to do customer support for Notion. I don't have to hear all the complaints of, like, why isn't your API ready?
Speaker 2:Like, my ego is removed from that. I don't have to hear like, of course, I still hear people's sort of complaints and struggles, but I'm removed from it as a nonfounder. I'm I'm like, oh, well, let me just show you how to solve for that. And I don't have to, like, be kept up at night with the anxiety of, like, are our users, like, you know, is it the uptime and whatever? Like, there's way less anxiety when I'm talking about someone else's software than my own.
Speaker 2:Right? It's a whole different ballgame.
Justin:Yeah. I could totally see that. It it might be helpful actually to back up a bit and to ask you, like, when you were starting out, like, right at the beginning with business, what were you doing it for?
Speaker 2:Like, the web design work I was doing? Like
Justin:As in what was the purpose that was driving you? Like, what what did you want to achieve that you couldn't achieve in paid employment? Like, what was driving you?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I had worked at a studio for almost 4 years as a designer, and I didn't have a ton of control over the the types of clients and the types of projects. So for me, there was, like, a freedom aspect of, like, I wanna choose. I want more creative projects or I want a creative challenge or I I just want a little bit more control over the types of people that
Justin:I work with. Interesting. And was there any was there any, like, monetary or like, what what were the other dynamics in there? Like like, were you hoping to make more money or have, like, more free time personally? Or, like, was there any of that stuff too?
Speaker 2:I mean, sure. Money is always part of it too. Like, I worked at a it was a 2 person studio, and I was one of those 2 people. So it was a tiny, tiny studio. There was nowhere else to go.
Speaker 2:My boss was amazing. He treated me like his equal, and I learned so much from him, and there was just such amazing mentorship there. That was awesome. And I knew there was sort of a ceiling there where, like, I was the the interactive person. He was the print guy.
Speaker 2:And so I didn't have anyone above me either that was like, here's how to do I'm, like, googling. I'm just, like, figuring stuff out as I go, looking at other freelancer websites, like, a list of part. Like, there was so many things I didn't know, and I'm just, like, trying to figure it out on my own. And I think, just knowing that there wasn't really there was nowhere to climb up, and it it just kinda was gonna be what it was gonna be. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:I I think I was, yeah, seeking, like, okay. Well, can I work on bigger projects? What would that look like? Like, what's what's possible for me? How much money do I wanna earn?
Speaker 2:I I definitely kinda hit a bit of a ceiling if I were to stay at a, you know, 1, 2 person shop. So there was a financial aspect for sure, but my goal in year 1 was, like, can I earn as much as I did in my full time job? If I did, that's a win. Right? And so once I did that my 1st year, I'm like, okay.
Speaker 2:Like, it's possible. What's next? Right? And you just kinda keep keep leveling up. Yeah.
Justin:Yeah. And so what do you think if you're gonna, like, articulate okay. Here's the picture of a better life that I want out of this business. How do you think you would have articulated that back then? And how has that changed now?
Speaker 2:For me, it's so much I just wanna I wanna choose. I wanna decide what I'm working on. I want to work with cool people that are that are having an impact. I don't wanna work on crummy projects that just end up in a like, things that end up in a landfill. Like I wanted to work with people who were doing big things in the world, and I could be the kind of person behind the scenes that was sort of helping activate them and get their stuff out there.
Speaker 2:I've worked with Marie Forleo. I've worked with Natalie MacNeil. I've worked with people who are just they've got these big online programs, and they're, like, just doing big ass stuff out there. And I was, like, yes. If I could be a supporting role in that, I was super excited and activated by that.
Speaker 2:That's something changed a little bit today. Like now I'm asking myself, like, what is my body of work? Like, what is the legacy work that if I die tomorrow, like, I can be happy that that was out into the world and that was impacting people in a positive way? So Mhmm.
Justin:It's a
Speaker 2:little less like, oh, I'm behind the scenes quietly working away, and it's more like, okay, well, what do I what do I want my work to have stood for?
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. See, these questions are so interesting to me because I'm I mean, part of me is also trying to figure out why is there such a big group of people who want this now. And a lot of them,
Speaker 2:I don't know
Justin:if I can even generalize this way. But it it seems especially like folks my generation and younger. So I'm I'm 1980, so I'm probably just on the tail end of gen x. And then you had millennials. And I'm not sure what the generations after that.
Justin:But, definitely, those 2 generations, gen x and millennials, there just seems to be a lot of folks in there that are, like, okay. Like, I don't want the old like, I want the van life. I wanna live in a like, the the thing the idea that that's a trend is is crazy. Right? Or, even, like, I wanna live on the island in a beautiful place and surrounded by nature.
Justin:Right? There's there's these these things that we want, and I want work that is meaningful. I want I mean, for me, a lot of it was I want freedom. Like, I don't want to have to drive 2 hours a day. I don't want someone to have to approve when I can go on vacation and when I can't.
Justin:So 2 days ago, I just took, like, an emotional day off. I was not doing well. Just personally, there's some stuff, and I stayed home. And I just messaged John, my cofounder, and said, hey, bud. And we're pretty honest with each other.
Justin:I'm, like, I just don't feel good emotionally today. And I just by, like, accident, I had a therapy appointment booked for 1 PM. So, basically, like, I stayed in bed, and then I went to therapy. Therapy. And then at the end of the day, I felt like just emotionally, like, someone had squeezed me like a, you know, like a Twice up.
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. Just like, I'm all I'm all gone. And I was thinking even about that. Like, what how did I handle that when I was employed?
Justin:And maybe I just have more emotional days than other people because I'd you you never know because people hide it. Because I just had to hide it. Yeah. Yeah. I just had to suck it up.
Justin:And and I think there's a a group of us that are like, no. I want something better. And we've latched on to this idea of starting our own business to get there. And now I'm just wondering, maybe there is other ways that folks haven't considered.
Speaker 2:Right? Yes. Totally. Yeah. There's, like, lots to say on that too.
Speaker 2:I don't even know, I feel like do you feel like mental wellness, mental health has has started to become destigmatized? And I feel like it's in our language in a way that that maybe wasn't 20, 30, like, however many years ago. It wasn't as common. Like, there are still people today that that are like therapy. That's what you do when you're broken or your brain isn't working or, like, I got this.
Speaker 2:So it's still starting to become, I think, quite normalized, and everyone can be like, what? You don't have a therapist? You gotta get a therapist. It's it's normal in a way that wasn't. So I think people were a little bit more maybe disconnected, and you're like, you just pull up your bootstraps and you show up to work and you gotta do what you gotta do, and it was it was kind of buried.
Speaker 2:And now that we've got a little bit more acceptance and freedom around it, we're sort of, like, owning it and being, like, self care day, whatever. Like, it's almost more casual in a way.
Justin:Yeah. There's a there's a agency called Titan that I met through the Laravel community, and they have, like, for them, mental health days are just normal sick days. And so, the leadership there has, you know yeah. That that's something that came from the top down. And I think that's it, like, a good I think there's always gonna be those of us that are just, like, you know, we the the only slot for us or, like, the best slot for us is owning our own business.
Justin:Right? And, actually, let's just focus on that for right now because that's the space that you're in. Because you were saying, like, you feel like you're, well, I don't wanna put words in your mouth. But Unemployed. Well, that but how would you contrast, like, the the your business now that you're running now as compared to running Doki?
Justin:In terms of, like, in terms of revenue, in terms of potential, in terms of margin, has is there a difference?
Speaker 2:I mean so a lot has changed, and I don't know, like, how much you're aware, but, like, Ben is working full time now.
Gavin:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:He's been working full time since August. So in August, he got headhunted. Things exploded with Notion. So already, the business looks completely different than it did 8 months ago, like, completely different. So Doki Doki still hums we we were wondering, like, what is this gonna mean for our software if Ben is the only one that maintains that code base?
Speaker 2:Like, I couldn't update any code there. Like, I wouldn't know what to do. So we're like, if Ben is working full time, like, what is that gonna mean for the software? And we had lots questions around, is this the right move? What does this mean?
Speaker 2:Do we shut it down? Do we just kinda let it do its thing? And we decided to let it do its thing, and it just hums along behind the scenes. It pays our mortgage. It pays our bills, and that, like, we don't worry about feature development.
Speaker 2:We're not too worried. Like, if Ben wants to do that on his spare time and he's motivated enough to do that, he gets to do it. But it it kinda, in a way, took the decision making out of it. We're, like, oh, well, it's still serving people. We still have people signing up for it.
Speaker 2:All of our consulting clients use it. So, like, meh. It just kinda is what it is. Most of our revenue still comes from consult like, it was my revenue comes through consulting. Benz is through his full time job.
Speaker 2:So, again, a lot has changed. You're catching me, like, in the middle of, like, a very interesting time in my business.
Justin:Yeah. And I think even that is a good picture of it's it's so easy to lose sight of what got us. What why did we do this in the first place? Right? Like, what were we trying to achieve?
Justin:You know, I was talking to one fellow, who's also on the island, and I was trying to help him. He he thought he wanted to start his own business. So he had 0 audience. You know, he was really had never built anything on his own, and I was gonna try to help him go from 0 to 1. And as we're talking, I mean, the first question I said is, okay.
Justin:Like, why are you here? What are you trying to get out of this? What's this for? And he said, you know, he had this goal of I think it was making an extra 20 or 30,000 a year because he figured he needed to save that, for his kids for different reasons. I was like, okay.
Justin:That's a great goal. And then we start getting into this and, you know, we start and after a while, I was like, wait a second. What is the most efficient way for this fellow to improve his life in this way? And I said, you know, to be honest, I think, like, the effort that you're gonna put into a business and the chance of success is, like, very, very low compared to putting that same effort into applying at jobs and getting a job that pays 40 or 50,000
Speaker 2:higher. Mhmm.
Justin:Negotiating. Yeah. Exactly. Interesting. And he just he just hadn't thought of that because in his mind, it's like, no.
Justin:The the the way that I get what I want is to go through business. But I think we need to be open and say, no. There are many paths to the life that you want. And everything from cutting personal expenses to, you know, staying full time employed, but just applying at different places, getting more leverage, maybe earning a little bit of income on the side. I was I was even thinking about Mega Maker, which is this online community that I run.
Justin:And when I was really, like, hungry and desperate, I was trying to push that sucker to, like, pay all my bills.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You put this unrealistic pressure on parts of your business.
Justin:You're trying to get it to fill a room that I mean, it's like music. Like, if you if you've ever, like, been a performer and you get into a venue that's too big for you, and you're just trying to fill this room, but you can't. That's Interesting. What it felt like. And now that transistor provides my full time income and, you know, all of that financial pressure's gone, mega maker is actually, like, doing almost better, But it's never going to make a $100,000 a year, but it might make 30 or $40,000 a year.
Justin:And with way less effort and way less stress. And so yeah. What what do you think are some things people should think of? Like, what what went into, you know, Ben wanting to go back to work and, you know, and you thinking about how your business would change
Speaker 2:after that happened. This opportunity kind of fell on Ben's lap at a time where we were wondering, like, what is the next step for Doki? Like, if we're not marketing it heavily or we're not, like, doubling down and growing it, then what are we doing with it? Like, what does it mean? What do we want it to mean?
Speaker 2:You know, all of that stuff. So we were definitely rattling with this for a while, and I think it was causing Ben a lot of anxiety. He kinda had to shoulder and carry whatever anxiety from the product because the people I'm working with are the people who are, like, building courses and succeeding, and I'm seeing the money coming in, and I'm coaching with them.
Justin:And we're
Speaker 2:like, yeah. Yeah. But then Ben will see all the tech support stuff or when things aren't working or when Stripe change it, like GDPR stuff. And you're like, do I invest all this time in the GDPR stuff when our client base isn't that big? No one's gonna note it.
Speaker 2:Like, all of these decisions, it's like a 100 decisions a day that was mostly on Ben to make those decisions. And I think we hadn't factored in, like, because the software is so big, because there's so many integrations, there's so many other pieces you're relying on, That that was causing a lot of anxiety for Ben, and I had to I had to also respect that, yeah, like, I I feel you. And, like, if this is really impacting you in a way that is no longer fun, well, we need to think about that because what is the point of doing this if it's not fun anymore? So how can we how can we make it fun or, like, what needs to happen so that you feel like you're getting what you need out of the business? Let and then job comes along.
Speaker 2:You're like, that's funny. And same technical stack as Doki, similar challenges. It was, like, so aligned. And it it kinda just that was another decision we didn't have to make. And we're, like, well, fuck it.
Speaker 2:Let's see where this let's see where this goes. And it's been so cool to see Ben in more of a leadership role to be collaborating with people. Like, the tech part is so so easy for him. So suddenly he's able to take the skills that he was doing, but now they're they're being applied at a much bigger scale, which is like, yes. Okay.
Speaker 2:I can you can see the impact of your work. But if you only have a handful of customer, you're sort of like, like, what's the? It's hard to get behind that. So so that was one piece of it. Yeah.
Justin:I I had one sorry. Just one thing. I had my friend, Jathan, in Kamloops. It was like I was like this is when I was employed, and I was like, just like, actually, I was working with a client. That's what it was.
Justin:And I was just complaining about it. It was like a bad, you know, having a bad time. And I said, you know, I'm never gonna work for clients again. And he's like, Justin, just so you know, there are better clients than this client that you've got. Like, you are seeing this here, and it's making you color everything else with the same brush.
Justin:But it is possible that there is a client out there that could give you everything you want out of life and more. And there's a lot of bad clients too, but you can't completely shut that out. Because why would you say that the only possible thing that's ever going to make you happy is having your own sass?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Oh, yeah. There's so many so many other ways, different ways.
Justin:Yeah. So sorry. I interrupted you. So then how so so this thing lands on on Ben's lap, and, he decides to go that way. And then at the same time, Notion lands on your lap.
Justin:How does that affect your world?
Speaker 2:It honestly, it's pretty bananas. Like, just doing the webinar, I feel like my business changed overnight. Like, it looks completely different than it did. Like, ran the webinar, suddenly this huge influx of activity and people reaching out and Notion reaching out and the YouTube channel and things just kind of exploded. And I launched the course, and, like, the course replaced my client income, like, immediately.
Speaker 2:Really? Yes. Wow. So I was like, okay. Clearly and, like, it's not even you can't even find it on my website.
Speaker 2:People have Googled it and found it. I think I mentioned the link on, like, one of my YouTube video, and, like, people have been purchasing it even though it's not, like, publicly available for sale. And so it has done very well. Wow. So I'm like, okay.
Speaker 2:Well, what does this mean? Like, they're I mean, I don't know how much I'm allowed to talk about the actual notion inside of it because, again, I don't work with them, but they're like, holy crap. There's some traction here. Right? And I've become a bit of an ambassador, unpaid ambassador for them.
Speaker 2:But there are options there where I could say, hey, like, do you wanna license my IP? Like, is that a thing we could do? Do you want to pay for me to travel and talk about the product and go go train a team in London? Like, there's so many opportunities that have opened up as a result of that. So the consulting inquiry started coming in immediately immediately.
Speaker 2:So it shifted from doing these bigger, longer term retainer clients to suddenly, like, let's get your Notion stuff set up, like, up and running in a couple weeks or whatever. And that's been, like, incredibly lucrative, easy, fun. I'm like, wow, okay, let's just see let's see where this takes me. I just kind of kept an open mind about it, and it's been so fun. So I'm like, I'm back to teaching again what I love.
Speaker 2:It's I have an evergreen course that can kinda still sell on autopilot, so I'm getting, like, the best of both worlds, a very leveraged thing to sell, but still get to run office hours and connect with people. So I'm feeling like I'm starting to get all the different parts of what I really like. So I'm like, well, maybe it doesn't look like what I expected it. I'm talking about someone else's software, but I was like, screw it. It's, like, kind of fun and easy.
Speaker 2:Like, let's see where this goes. Yeah.
Justin:I mean, there's so much of that that is so great. Like and especially the part where like, I feel like in a lot of ways, Transistor I mean, we work hard on it, but I don't work as hard as I did before. Like, trying to get, for example, Mega Maker or my course to fill a room that it was never going to fill was way more work and way more stress than having this thing that is just pulling us along that where the momentum there. And there's so much momentum. It can sometimes feel like, well, this is easy because, like you said, people just show up.
Justin:Yeah. Like, every morning, I open my shop door, and there's a lineup of people that want Notion education and training and help. Right? And that feeling is such a great feeling. And the thing I still don't understand is, like, if we're going to advise people on how to get what they want, how do we advise them about the, like because there's a piece of this which is to say you can't be satisfied with something that's not working.
Justin:Right? I think. And then there's also a piece of this, like, which is you've just gotta be waiting and searching or, like, what what is the is there some tangible steps people can take? Or is there a mindset that people need to have? Like, what what
Speaker 2:do you think? There's so much good stuff in there. I think okay. Part of it, I think, is is looking at your career a little bit like a playground. Right?
Speaker 2:Like, you're in you're experimenting with mega maker. You're doing all these like, you're you're listening. Right? The whole time, you're just like, where is their momentum? Where is their ease?
Speaker 2:Where is my skill set best being used? Right? Where are your strengths kinda lining up with what's happening? And I think you you can't find that until you've, like, been chucking stuff out there and seeing what's coming back to you. So there is a runway period, I think, where there has to be some, like, I'm playing with stuff.
Speaker 2:I'm testing it. I'm not putting too much pressure on myself. Yes. It'd be nice if I can, like, make this thing make all the money. But if it doesn't, then I'm learning something.
Speaker 2:And as long as you're, like, learning and, like, pulling those nuggets and, like, I don't think it's a coincidence necessarily that, like, you landed on Transistor, like, woah. Like, you're paying attention to what's happening in the market. You're seeing the trends in podcasting. Like, there is experience there that led you to notice where there was an opportunity there, and you wouldn't have gotten there without all that stuff along your way.
Justin:Yeah. I think I mean, I've been saying almost exactly that. That that is I think that folks and and it does make me think, like, because, essentially, I'm trying to figure out what encouragement can we bring to people. And I do feel like, especially in this age of, like, climate change, and there's a lot of things that can stress us out and that feel like big problems. And in the same way that, like, fight like, there's this big question of, like, how do I find work that fulfills me and provides me with the life and the margin that I desire.
Justin:I mean, that's a big question. And climate change is a big question. And, you know, all of the big questions in life are big. But the answer is it the answer is, like you said, to just be observing, look for opportunities, take it. Like, you can even though climate change is pressing and I feel like we need to work right now, I still realize that it's going to be a lot of people, in that case, making individual efforts towards a big goal.
Justin:And with your career or your life's work, I mean, that's mostly on you, but it's there's gonna have to be a lot of little efforts along the way. And remember a shifting ecosystem that eventually things might align just because, you know, the planets rotate around, and then all of a sudden, you've got to yeah. You've got the timing.
Speaker 2:And, you know, on the on that note of what you're what you're saying is, like, something that came up for me with coaching with Tanya Geisler, because, you know, I want my work to be, like, world changing and whatever. Like, there's it's like when I'm helping people design their workflow in Notion, it's like, am I changing the world? Like, I do have those questions of, like, is the work that I'm doing contributing to the world in a bigger way? And something that Tanya said was, like, the way that you change the world doesn't have to also be only through your work. Right?
Speaker 2:It might mean more it might mean more volunteer time. It might mean lifestyle change. It doesn't have to be, I only work with clients that do this or my work has to be, like, whatever it is. Like, it doesn't have to necessarily be a climate change thing that I'm doing, but it might be working with people who are doing that, or it might be just sustaining myself in such a way that I'm able to make ethical investments over here or invest in an organization or whatever. Like, it doesn't have to be the work that I'm doing every single day has to meet all of that criteria.
Speaker 2:I think overall, you're you're trying to create a feeling with your life of, like, where are my resources going? Where's my time going, my energy? Am I fully present with the people in my life? Am I able to give energy to these organizations that I really care for? Can I donate?
Speaker 2:Can what does that look like for you? And I think that's that's gonna be different for everyone.
Justin:Yeah. And that's such a good that's such a good reminder of because we you're right. We do put sometimes so much weight on this job, this business has to fulfill Has to do everything. Everything. And, you know, maybe John and I, in a sense, are there because we've been working so hard to get here, and now we're here.
Justin:And we have a very comfortable life right now. It was almost like it flipped the switch. Like, we were uncomfortable and and but it was still, like, fine because we're, like, working towards this thing. And there's, like, momentum, and we're trying to get there. And then we reached this the point that we'd wanted to get to, and then it's like, oh, well, wait a second.
Speaker 2:Well, now what? Now what? And An existential crisis comes in. Right?
Justin:That's right. And and there's this feeling of, wow, this isn't gonna solve all my life's problems. Like, there are a lot of other buckets in my life that need attention and care and, and that I'm going to need to develop. I've gotten really good at developing this business stuff, but am I going to develop my sense of local community? Am I gonna develop, like, inner peace?
Justin:Am I gonna develop, you know, like, all these other things? And I think that's just a great reminder to to tell people, like, do not put all of the onus on your business like you need.
Speaker 2:Feel well your every yeah.
Justin:Oh, yeah. And and it's tricky because so much of our our language in, you know, the people that are and again, I've been in this camp. Rah rah business. Rah rah, this will save solve your problems. You know?
Justin:There needs to be way more, nuance around that of this is this the the whole person that you're going to become is going to be partly your work or the way you make money, but is going to encompass and need all of this other stuff that you're gonna have to develop alongside that. Like, it you don't think you're gonna get there. And, certainly, money having money does solve a lot of problems. Like, I do not wanna go back to being desperate for money. Yeah.
Justin:Yes. Yeah. But and and maybe that is the thing. Like, once you solve the money problem the best you can, having that margin is should lead hopefully to some other stuff. There's, like,
Speaker 2:so much in this conversation. It's really it's really great. But the same way you were saying you were expecting Mega Maker to, like, do so much of that for you. And and even the same with relationships. Right?
Speaker 2:It's like we expect our spouse to be our best friend, our lover, our this or that. It's like Mhmm. Not everything in our life needs to do all the things. Like where can we get what we need from different parts of our business? And I think also, like, defining success is a big part of that too.
Speaker 2:For me, like, a a great client is not just a client that's paying me a shit ton of money, but it's like, can I get aligned with what they're up to? Do I like them as a person? Do I am I energized after a call with them? And, like, my criteria is gonna be very different than than someone else. So if someone's thinking of starting up a SaaS business, it's like, great.
Speaker 2:That might be very aligned for you. But, also, there are lots of other interesting ways of making money that might actually be a better use of your skill set or might bring in more money. There's so many different ways of gotta get out of your bubble, right, of when you're only surrounded by software developers. And and this is a whole other tangent I could go on, because I'm in a lot of very women heavy, like, female entrepreneur lifestyle over here, and then in a lot of very male centric, bootstrapped software developers are very different. Right?
Speaker 2:It's like each of these is very different vibe, very different ways of speaking, very different language, right? So I see these very Interesting. Interesting ways of showing up in business. And I'm like, woah. Like, if you are not crossing out of your own bubble, if you only are a woman building businesses for other women, like, and you're missing out on this over here, and if men aren't kinda tuned in and seeing, like, do you know how many women coaches are making so much money in online coaching programs?
Speaker 2:Like, holy crap, there's so many fascinating ways people are making money that I think when you get in your bubble, you you don't actually see what other people are doing over there. Whether that's a gendered conversation or not, it's just something that I've I've definitely noticed.
Justin:Yeah. No. I love that. I that that part is you know? Yeah.
Justin:Like, I I think one of the thing that maybe the only advantage to being severely depressed, when I like, I was 2 or 3 years ago. Like, I was so depressed. The the the the advantage is, like, you're just willing to look at everything. Like, every foundation you ever built your life on, every ideology, every idea you've had since you were a kid of how life is supposed to be. And these new ones you picked up, like, these are the people like me, and I want to be like them.
Speaker 2:Got nothing to lose. Right?
Justin:Yeah. You've got nothing to lose. And the consideration the consideration of looking at other folks you know, I started asking my barber, like, how does your business work? How do conferences work in your area? Like, what's the community like?
Justin:You know, how do people make progress in your? And it was fascinating. I learned so much just from that one conversation. And it opened me up to, you know, all sorts of ideas that I hadn't been exposed to before. Yeah.
Justin:So I think there is something about getting out of your bubble and considering especially if you've been trying this for a long, long time. Like, if you've been trying to build a software business for a long, long time and and it's been miserable, I don't know what that threshold is, but it seems like eventually, like, we gotta move on and try something else, you know?
Speaker 2:I think you almost have to agree in advance what is the runway I'm willing to give myself in this process. Like, is it a year? Is it 2 years? Is it 3 and, like, what are the milestones that you can at least check against to be, like, do I keep going or is there no momentum here? And I do think a lot of people build software for for themselves, kind of.
Speaker 2:It's like, oh, I wanna build a thing that does x, and it's not solving a thing that people are asking for or I mean, even Ben's kinda guilty of that too. He'd be like, oh, I could do a software for that. I'm like, or you could just build a Notion template and, like, it's done, and you can start making money this afternoon. Right? It's like how much of that effort and upfront effort does it have to be a software?
Speaker 2:Like, why are you choosing the format before you're choosing the problem that you're that you're solving? So I think sometimes people get too attached to the format than the problem.
Justin:Yeah. And, yeah, too attached to the format and and and not thinking about I mean, sometimes format's important in in the sense that you might want the format to to motivate you in a intellectual or, you know, technical sense. But format, if if there ultimately, if you have this outcome that you want, which is you wanna take 3 months off every year and go travel or whatever. If that's the outcome you want, then, yeah, whatever format you choose, it needs to naturally lead to that. And if if there's no connection there or if the connection is tenuous, it I think that that there's some reflection there of okay.
Justin:Is there another way of looking at this? Yeah. But, like, could I could I do something different and get what I want as opposed to staying in this boat, you know?
Speaker 2:And, like, how how painful is that problem for people? Right? Like, there's, like sometimes I'll get people to reverse engineer from a price point. I'm, like, what would a $10,000 offer that solves that problem look like? Like, how how painful is that problem and is someone willing to pay for that?
Speaker 2:What does a $1,000 offer look? Or, like, sometimes it's fun to start with format just as a brainstorming tool. Like, what's the book? What's the framework? What's the SAT?
Speaker 2:Like, what are those? And then also reverse engineer from price point or also reverse engineer from what's the highest effort thing that like, what's the most energy and most effort that it takes you to do what you do? And then what is, like, the hands free version of that? And I feel like once you play around with the formats and don't get so stuck, interesting ideas might emerge that you hadn't really thought of before.
Justin:Yeah. Is is there a way of mapping that all out in Notion?
Speaker 2:I'm I'm working on it. It's emerging. Yeah. This has been so great.
Justin:I actually I wanna leave it here because I feel like we could go for longer, but I like leaving people wanting more. So I we're gonna leave it here and we'll have you back on especially folks if you if this is resonating with you. Just get us on Twitter. You're Marie Poulin. Right?
Justin:Yep. I'll put that in the show notes. I'm the letter m letter I Justin. And you can find us online. We'd love to hear how some of this is just hitting you in the car or while you're doing dishes or whatever.
Justin:Whatever that is, let us know, and then we'll do a follow-up. Where where can people find you? Where should they find your projects these days? How do they find that secret the Notion course that is online?
Speaker 2:Marie poolin.com/notionedashmastery.
Justin:Oh, wow. That really is not on your website.
Speaker 2:I know because it's still in beta.
Justin:People keep
Speaker 2:finding it.
Justin:I'm gonna put it in the show notes and people will be able to find it.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Yeah. Marinegolden.com is probably the best place to find me and always on Twitter and Instagram. They can hit me up anytime.
Justin:Perfect. Well, thanks again for being here.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Thanks for having me.
Justin:Thanks. And a special thanks to everyone who supports us on Patreon. If, hey, if you wanna support us on Patreon and get a shout out, go to patreon.com/john. Justin, here we go. Chris, Willow, Mason Hensley, Boria Solar, Ward Sandler, Eric Lima, James Sours, Travis Fisher, Matt Buckley, Russell Brown, Van Der Osassy, Pradjuma, Schembeccher, Noah Praill, Robert Simplicio, Colin Gray, Josh Smith, Ivan Kerkovic, Brian Ray, hire that guy, Shane Smith, Austin Loveless, Simon Bennett, Michael Sittfer, Paul Jarvis, and Jack Ellis, Dan Buda, John Buda's brother, Darby Frey, Samori Augusto, Dave Young, Brad from Canada, Sammy Schubert, Mike Walker, Adam Duvander.
Justin:Hey. You won. Hey. You won one of the prizes in the contest. And Dave Junta Junta.
Justin:And thanks also to kylefox@getrewardful.com. We will see you next week.
