Jon & Justin reveal everything (part 1)
Alright. And when you're ready to do an intro
Jon:Alright.
Justin:Go ahead.
Jon:It's been a while. Hey, everyone. Welcome to Build Your SaaS. This is the behind the scenes story of building a web app in 2022. I'm John Buda, a software engineer.
Justin:And I'm Justin Jackson. I do product and marketing. You've been following along as we've been building transistor.fm. And, John, it's it's kind of crazy to think that we've been doing this show for over 4 years. Yeah.
Justin:And that means the company we built together is also, also, well, over 4 years old. But today, August 1st, is the anniversary of us publicly launching transistor to the world, doing the product hunt launch and all that.
Jon:Yeah. August
Justin:Do you remember 20 that time?
Jon:Yeah. Absolutely. I remember that. Yeah. That was a fun time.
Jon:It was
Justin:We're both in Chicago.
Jon:Kinda wild.
Justin:I crashed at your apartment.
Jon:Yep. I
Justin:mean, if people go back in our episodes, they will realize like, you can you can you can go back to you know, I think our first episode is something like February or March, of that year before we launched.
Jon:My name is John Buda. I am living in Chicago, Illinois. I'm a developer by trade, I suppose. I have background a little bit of a background design as well. So I guess kind of a full stack web developer.
Speaker 3:I'm Justin Jackson. I'm from Canada. I got started in software in 2008. Now on the web, I'm kind of known as, indie entrepreneur or, solopreneur guy. So we met back in 2014 because we met at XOXO.
Speaker 3:We did. Yeah. That first day of the festival, you and I met, and I remember being so thankful that you wanted to talk to me. Vic
Jon:Yeah. Which is which is sort of the opposite for me because I'm a fairly introverted guy. So for me to talk to random folks at at festivals is is like me pushing myself out of my comfort zone completely.
Speaker 3:So it you're saying it was painful for you?
Jon:A little bit for sure. Yeah. I think it smoothed out. It went alright.
Justin:It's kind of wild. It's just wild. There was this feeling when I flew to Chicago of expectation and nervousness, this feeling of you and I knew each other, but not nearly as much as we know each other now.
Jon:No. Yeah. I mean yeah. We'd hung out a handful of times at conferences and then started a company together without actually getting together. Right?
Jon:Yeah. Had I mean, we've been recording for a while, so we knew each other pretty well.
Justin:We knew each other from the Internet and from these events that we'd gone to. We were introduced in 2014 by our friend, Chase Reeves at XOXO. Big shout out to xoxo for bringing John and I together. And I think we started talking in a food line, you know, like waiting for food or drinks or something. And, you know, it's typical.
Justin:It's like, Chase says, hey, this is John Buddha. And he's like, hey. This is Justin Jackson. And, you know, we're sitting there, standing there, and it's kinda like, okay. Well, what do you do?
Justin:You know? Yeah. And I said, well, I've been, like, working on this podcast called Product People. And he said, oh, I've been working on this podcast hosting platform called Simplecast, and that was, like, how we we met.
Jon:Yeah. That's kind of what we bonded over, I guess, or talked about. Yeah. You with your your mountain man beard, and I was clean shaven at the time, and we have since
Justin:we have
Jon:since swapped.
Justin:We flipped. We'll we'll put a photo in the show notes here, or maybe the cover art that will show that when we met, I had this giant beard, and you were, yeah, clean shaven. And we yeah. We flipped. Now now you're rocking the beard and I'm clean shaven.
Justin:I I keep trying to go back to the beard, but it's a lot of commitment.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:Especially for me. Like, I Well,
Jon:with that size of beard too, I think it's Yeah.
Justin:It's a lot. But it almost feels like with my facial hair, I have to grow it all the way out, just to get, like for it to even to work. But, Anyway, so we met, we hung out, we ended up seeing each other every year. Kinda after that, We worked on a few projects together. And then in 2017, we were hanging out online somewhere.
Justin:I I don't know where we were messaging.
Jon:I'm not either.
Justin:And we had been keeping in touch with, like, here's what I'm working on. Here's what you're working on. You were working at cards, at the time, Cards Against Humanity. Yep. And you said, hey.
Justin:I've been I've been hacking on a little project. And the the was the initial idea, like, cards was working on that new show, and that was why you were hacking on it?
Jon:Yeah. Cards was doing a a holiday promotion where they were gonna fund a podcast for a year that would release an episode every day of the week, and they were looking at, you know, they needed a place to host it, and they were looking at Simplecast, which I had built previously, but had you know, things have gone sour with that. So Yeah. And a lot of people had used it at the office just because I had been working on it even when I started at cards. So that's what they knew, and, you know, I was it would have been fine if they had used it, but in the back of my mind, I was like, I kinda wanted to get back into this again anyway.
Jon:So Yeah. I proposed the idea that I kinda build, like, a prototype of a posting platform and that if it was ready by the end of the year, they could use it. And that's what happened. So that was,
Justin:like,
Jon:late or, like I don't know. Little middle late 2017, I started on it.
Justin:Yeah. In our history doc, it says your first line of code was March 2017.
Jon:Oh, wow. That's okay. Yeah. That's so early, I guess, early 2017.
Justin:I mean, they did have
Jon:to plan this they did have to plan this thing quite far in advance. So, I think maybe I had already started working on it even before they brought this up. That's a little bit hazy, but, you know, it's one of those projects where, like, you just need something fun to work on in your free time to kind of keep you, I don't know, motivated or, like, learn new stuff. And so I've been working on that a little bit. On and off when I could.
Jon:And then yeah. That that podcast launched, things went pretty well. And I think you had got in touch with me either late 2017 or early 2018?
Justin:I think it was late 2017 because yeah. It was, like, probably, November or December or even October, it could have been. And you were telling me about this project you were working on. You had already registered the the domain name. You had already, incorporated the company.
Jon:And You Stripe Stripe Atlas. Yeah. That's right.
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. The company was actually officially incorporated in July 2017.
Jon:Okay.
Justin:And then, as the year is winding down, so October, November, December, we were talking, and I was like, I was looking for a new project, and I've been doing things on my own for a long time and was just kind of burnt out on it and was really wanting to do something in software again. Yep. There's kind of 2 things. There's, like, who do I wanna partner up with? And, you know, I thought about Kyle Fox.
Justin:He was the one that I did the Product People podcast with. And, because you want somebody you can trust, you want somebody who has similar product sensibilities, you want somebody who is a good builder, who, like, can really, execute at a high level. And, you know, I was thinking about, okay, who could I partner with? Or maybe I should buy a SaaS app and, you know, do it that way. And then you're telling me about this project, and I was just like, the there were so many things bubbling in that at that point in podcasting.
Justin:And I've been doing it for years, and I was just like it just felt like instantly for me, like, wow. That is a project that I could work on. And that and John's somebody I could work on a project with. And we'd had a failed, like, project not a failed, but a project we worked on together. And I just remember it being like we had a good rapport while we
Jon:were, you
Justin:know, going back and forth. Yeah.
Jon:It was a good it was a good, I don't know, test case for that.
Justin:Yeah. And, I remember, you know, I remember telling my wife that night, like, you know, John's working on this thing, and I'm kind of thinking of asking him if he he'd wanna work on it with me, if he'd wanna partner up. And she was just like, yes. That sounds exactly right. Yeah.
Justin:Because it so many things just seem to align. You know? It was like, podcasting is the perfect category for us to both be in together. You've got our skills that seem to balance each other out so well. We knew each other.
Justin:We had, like, you know, I I'd come home every year and she from XOXO, and she'd say, who'd you hang out with? And I'd be like, well, Chase and John Buda and Dan and everybody. And and so she the it was just I think she even recognized, like, this would be really good Yeah. And that it was worth pursuing because I was like, I don't know if I should pursue this. Like, maybe I should just go after something else or maybe John won't be into it.
Justin:And Yeah.
Jon:I mean, initially, I wasn't. Right?
Justin:Yeah. Initially, you weren't. You know, I yeah.
Jon:I had had been burned on simple cast and was sort of, like, deflated from working with someone who, you know, I thought I could trust and worked with well and did not work out. So, you know, I was building this thing like I could build this on my own and try to get it to work and, like, you know, it might make enough money for me to live on or be a nice side income or something like that. Yeah. But, yeah, for me, I mean, the more I thought about it, the more I was like, I don't I don't know marketing. I don't want to spend my time doing that.
Jon:Yeah. Justin knows how to do that. He has a big following. He's like charismatic and outgoing on the Internet. And, like, once I thought about that, I sort of switch flipped my head, and I was, like, yeah, that that makes sense.
Jon:Might as well try this out.
Justin:Try it out. And we took it seriously. I mean, I think I think, if you go back to those episodes, like, you were like, let's sign some partnership docs. Let's get some lawyers. You know?
Justin:And I think, you know, I I don't know if everyone should start a company like that, but, yeah, that's how it worked for us. We invited our 1st beta customers in March 2018. August 1st, we did our our official launch. We got a 100 customers from that official launch. By March 2019, we're very close to hitting $10,000 a month in recurring revenue.
Jason:Mhmm.
Justin:And then April 2019, I went full time. June of that year, we had a 1,000 active customers. And July, right before our, 1 year launch anniversary, you went full time.
Jon:Yep.
Justin:And we've got a bunch of questions from our audience. I don't know if we're gonna be able to get to all of these, but I wanna thank everyone that gave us questions and yeah, we're just gonna go through them in honor of this 4 year anniversary. And yes, hopefully, I think it'll be fun for you and I, but hopefully also it gives people a sense of the significance of all of this, of this time of building a company on the Internet with people you didn't grow up with and didn't know previously.
Jon:Yeah. Through a through a pandemic.
Justin:Through a pandemic. I mean, it's it is It's incredible.
Jon:It's funny. Before we get into the questions, like, you know, you'd think you'd think, like, this morning I'd be preparing for this call or something, but I was actually just, like, working on code because it's fun.
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:You know? Like, I I really enjoy it still, and I'm not sitting here, like, going, you know, going through our history and looking up everything. I'm just like, I wanna fix this thing because it's fun.
Justin:Yeah. To be able to wake up every day.
Jon:That's great.
Justin:Yeah. It is it really is. And I hope I mean, I know a lot of people listen to the show because they've got a dream. They've got a dream about building their own indie SaaS
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:Their own indie software company. And what we've tried to do on this show is provide a, you know, a balanced look of what that looks like. And we got lucky. Ours worked out. Often, they don't.
Justin:And so, you know, people along for the ride got this, kind of ascendant story, which is, I think, fun. But the other thing I try to communicate is the positive side, which is this really has changed our life in a in in a really positive way.
Jon:Mhmm.
Justin:And, the success is is definitely like, we cherish the success. We enjoy the success. The success, has definitely made our lives better.
Jon:Yeah. Definitely. It's don't take it for granted.
Justin:And we definitely don't take it for granted. Yeah. Alright. Let's get into some of these. Gerhard Lazu says, what is the secret to your calm and easy way of running transistor as a company?
Justin:Well, I think part of it is our personalities. Mhmm. What we wanted, You know, when you and I were talking, even when we were dreaming about the previous projects, that we did together, I think the the the motivation was, you know, we wanna have a good life. We want to not have to work for IBM. We want to you know, not that there's anything with IBM, but just like we knew what we wanted in terms of a work life balance, I think.
Jon:Yeah. I think we knew that going into it. I mean, it was it was definitely tricky at first. Like, I was working full time. Mhmm.
Jon:You were Yeah.
Justin:You were,
Jon:you know, you were still working on things too. Yeah. It's it's interesting looking back and, like, you know, why I would wanna run my own company or why we would. Mhmm. It's never really about the money.
Jon:It's if it's it's like, I I wanna work with good people. I wanna be able to set my own schedule. I wanna not have to go into an office from 9 to 5 even though, like, generally, I work 9 to 5. But within that time, there's so much freedom to just do, you know, schedule your day however you want.
Justin:Yeah. And, I mean, I think, especially I mean, the challenge sometimes is when you have all that freedom is to actually take advantage of it. But when we are in that mode of, you know, hey. Hey, everybody. I'm taking the afternoon off to go swimming and for a run.
Justin:That is that lifestyle does create calm.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:And I would also say, 2 more things. 1, our handbook, I'll link to it. We have these values that we've kind of added to this list over time. One is our emotional and physical well-being is our number one priority. It's worth investing money and time to take care of ourselves.
Justin:We've, you know, we've, benefited from therapy and other ways of taking care of our our minds and our bodies. And, I think for us to have that in there from the beginning, you know, I'd be like, message you. And initially, there's always some nervousness. You know, I'd be like, hey, man. I am not doing very good, and I just need to take a day off.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:And you were just so gracious and accepting about that from the beginning. And I think that's led to this, you know, calm and easy way of running the company is that we just we're not working super hard on, like, KPIs. You know? It's not like we've got a 1,000,000 things we've gotta we've gotta hit every month. We've always kind of just found this nice balance.
Justin:And I'd say the other thing is that something else that really helped us have become is that our market, our category, podcast hosting, the momentum is just perfect for us.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:It's not like if you listen to Peltie's story with Balsamic, he pushed launch on that, and he said it was like holding on to a rocket ship with his fingernails. It was just so crazy, and he had to hire people right away, and he was not having a good time.
Jon:Yeah. That I yeah. I don't think I would have enjoyed that. I don't think you would have either. No.
Jon:That would have been it would have been too much.
Justin:And and then the reverse is bad too. If you don't have enough momentum in the market, then you're stressed. You're always trying to, do things, push things forward to try to make it happen, to try to get that machine running. And for us, we launched it wasn't like it was, you know, amazing right off the bat, but, you know, a 100 paying customers on our on our launch day. That's incredible.
Jon:Yeah. That's great. I guess to the flip side of this is and I hope we never get to this point, but, like, we haven't really been through a period that is a massive struggle. Right?
Justin:Like,
Jon:Nothing horrible has happened. Nothing catastrophic. Nothing like we've lost half of our customer base in a day. Mhmm. I think we'd probably work together and figure that out as a, you know, a 4 person team now and Yeah.
Jon:And figure out how to move forward. But I don't think that sort of struggle has really hit us yet
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:Which, you know, it certainly could. Hopefully, it doesn't, but, like, that will definitely test our, calm and easygoing company.
Justin:Yeah. It's true. It's true. Yeah. Although, I think certainly having a company with margin so we've got lots of financial margin still, lots of time margin, lots of energy margin.
Justin:We've never had to have an all I've been on teams where there's an all hands meeting, and it's like, alright, guys. Shit hit the fan. And it's actually, like, as an employee, it's always, like, often it's not your fault. Like Yeah. Sometimes it's mismanagement, or sometimes it's just the economy or some other external force or whatever.
Justin:But it's like, shit hit the fan. We all gotta come together and, like, you know, work the weekends and work the nights to get this done. Yeah. And I think one nice thing is it just feels like we have lots of energy in the bank if we ever need to do that. Yeah.
Jon:I think I think yeah. I think part of the reason we have that energy in the bank is that our company is calm, and we're not, like, you know, going towards burnout.
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:We're, like, maintaining a steady line of, like, excitement and rest, and and we, you know, we allow Jason and Helen to do the same. Like, if they need to take time off, they can do that basically whenever they want.
Justin:Mhmm.
Jon:Yeah. You know, take the day if it's, like, a Wednesday, and Jason's, like, I'm just done for the day. I'm gonna check out. It's, like, yeah. That's fair.
Jon:Like, you can't just sit at your desk and force yourself to work.
Justin:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Alright.
Justin:Let's go through some of these a bit faster. We got Marcela who says, what has been the most challenging aspect of the past 4 years, and how do you wish you handled it better? The the hard hitting questions.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:I think just quickly, like, the pandemic was difficult. Whenever there's something political in the US, it is difficult on our team.
Jon:It is. Yeah.
Justin:Not seeing each other during the pandemic, that was way too long. And generally, I would say so far, like John said, we've been lucky in the side of the company. Not much has been that challenging. I think the things that are challenging are the things that happen outside of the company. You know?
Justin:And so it's things in my personal life have, you know, sometimes been difficult or, like, external events like COVID or a recession. Right. Yeah. Those are those are challenging. Chris Enns, our amazing intrepid podcast editor who's been editing this show from the beginning, asks he has a few questions.
Justin:He says, where do you see Transistor at your 10 year anniversary? And then Jason Zuk had a similar question. Where do you see transistor in 5 years or 10 years? Is there an exit? All that kind of stuff.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:So 5 years will be 2,027? 7. Yep. I don't know. Any thoughts?
Justin:5, 10 years?
Jon:Yeah. It's hard to say. I mean, I know we wanna keep the company small, whether it's still 4 people or if there's more. That's kind of an open question. Mhmm.
Jon:I know personally, I don't wanna get it too big because I don't wanna have to have to feel like I'm managing people instead of building things. Right? Yep. Who knows how the podcast, like, ecosystem or market's gonna change? Like, that's that's hard to tell.
Jon:You know? What we obviously, we we try to adapt to it as we can as it happens kind of in real time. Mhmm. And as far as, like, an exit, I mean, if it if that happens in 5 years, like, I don't know if the the market to be acquired is sort of changing or drying up or there's been a lot of acquisition in the podcast space. Yeah.
Jon:But that's something we're also gonna talk about in October when we all get together for the first time
Justin:is, like,
Jon:where do we wanna go with this? Do we wanna do we wanna build towards maybe selling it, and what does that look like? Yeah. I we just don't have the answers to that. I mean, it if I was still working on it in 5 years like I am now, I think I'd be perfectly happy.
Justin:Yeah. Me too. And I I think the only existential question is, like, it would be nice for and, actually, I don't think you have this pressure as much as I do, but, you know, with the family and everything else, I think I I sometimes feel like, it'd be nice to have a couple million in the bank just, you know, just there. Yeah. But the, I mean, the great thing is if we continue to be as profitable as we are right now, in 5 years, it's very likely that, you know, I could have a couple million in the bank, and that you know, then, I I might be more way more at ease and way more willing to say, ah, let's just ride this out no matter what happens with the transistor mark, the transistor market the podcast market.
Jon:Yeah. I mean, realistically, like, we could technically just put this thing on autopilot right now and, like, go on vacation for 6 months. Yeah. But I don't know. We're not gonna do that.
Gavin:We should AB test that.
Jon:It could it could technically run it for the most part.
Justin:I mean,
Jon:you know, there's customer service, obviously, and stuff like that. Things need to be fixed and things are changing, but, like, you know, if we ever got sick of it, that's an option.
Justin:Yeah. That would be a fun AB test. Just go, okay. John and I are taking 6 months off. So then Jason and Helen just run the company, and then we switch.
Justin:Then it's like Yeah. We come back in 6 months. It's like, oh, wow. What's going on here? And they're like, everything's great.
Justin:You know? We're up into the right. It's like beauty. And then they they take 6 months off, and we just, you know Yeah. Run the company.
Jon:Sabbatical for 6 months. Yeah.
Justin:Yeah. I love this question from Giggle Quick on Twitter. What is SaaS? I responded on Twitter. But Okay.
Justin:That that that's always, like, people, you know, that ask me what I do, and I'll say, oh, well, we have a software company that does podcast hosting. And they're like, oh, what's your podcast? I was like, well, it's called build your SaaS.
Jon:Right.
Justin:Which means software as a service. It's like a niche thing. Anybody outside of software doesn't know what that is. Yeah. Matthias asks, do you ever feel like you're not doing enough?
Justin:What I mean is when things are taking off and margin is increasing, you might start to become comfortable. The initial hunger might start to wear off, and you maybe you enjoy the fruit of the work you you did. But sometimes I feel that I might become too comfortable and then have this feeling that competitors will be more hungry than me. I would love your thoughts on this. Is this something you struggle with?
Jon:Yeah. I think I do. I mean, it's in the it's always in the back of my mind. Like, I'm sure there's all I'm sure there's always more we could do. I don't think it's very beneficial to, like, think about it all the time.
Jon:Mhmm. I think that would just cause a lot of stress and anxiety.
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:But I think it's it's good to be aware of your competitors and, like, you know, how they're moving and kinda what they're doing and, things like that. And we've, you know, we've noticed that before. We've definitely reacted sometimes to other competitors in certain ways. But, yeah, I I don't know. I don't know if I necessarily worry that we're not doing enough.
Jon:I think we do a lot with the small team we have.
Justin:But Yeah. Yeah. I think there is this is kind of my, whatever my universal theory of bootstrapping or indie SAS or whatever, which is you need to find a momentum, a pace that allows you to go the distance. And, you know, I just I've I've gone on 2 runs this year. I did my for my my annual run, and then I'm like, I'll try to do another one.
Justin:But if I if I don't have a reasonable pace, I'm just not gonna be able to go the distance. And so, sure, I can run a faster mile, but that means I won't be able to run the next mile.
Jon:Right.
Justin:And there it's it's really tempting to stay up at night worrying about your competitors and then writing a big list of all the things you need to do to compete. And then just working yourself to the bone to try to get there. And I'm not saying there's not times to do that, like, sure. At the beginning, we did feel this pressure. We needed to get to feature parity with our competitors.
Justin:But, hopefully, the market you're in has enough draw, and really product can't be your only magnet. You've gotta have some other things in your in your corner. And, you know, for us, that was network. It was skills. It was our history.
Justin:It was us understanding the customer, I think, better than a lot of our competitors.
Jon:Mhmm.
Justin:It was, the fact that John is really good at building product, and hopefully, I'm okay at promoting it. It's having an audience. It's being able to, you know, reach out and collaborate with other people. It's being willing to ask for help. Like, you have to have more in your corner than just you cranking out features, hoping to get ahead of the competitors.
Justin:There are lots of products that are better than the incumbent, better features, whatever, but they're missing everything else. And the way, you know, the winners or even, like, the the marginal winners are not determined just by, you know, you having more features than your competitors.
Jon:Yeah. I, I finished a book recently called running the dream, which is really good. And it was about this, non he was not an elite runner, and he ended up he's a writer. He's a journalist, and he ended up wanting to join an elite team and training for the Chicago marathon and document it. But he was a really good runner, but he was not, like, you know, he's not gonna win a marathon.
Jon:He's not going to the Olympics.
Justin:Mhmm.
Jon:And it was all with him, like, training with his team for 6 months or whatever in in Arizona and Flagstaff. And it's kinda similar with building a product. Like, he's not going out there and running his marathon pace every day all the time. Right? There's, like, moments where you're gonna train for speed, and there's other stuff you're gonna do.
Jon:But most of the time, he's, you know, he's training at, like, you know, a minute a minute and a half slower than his marathon time, but doing, you know, putting in longer workouts and and training up different things, but there's also, like, he needs rest days, and he has, like, massages and and physical therapy and stuff like that that all plays into it. So you can't just, like, go balls out all the time and hope that you're gonna reach your goal. Yeah. Anyway, it's a great book. It doesn't really have anything to do with running a company, but pretty pretty pretty fascinating to read.
Justin:I I it sounds it sounds like it that's actually exactly kinda what you need to be, because these parallels are what you should be looking at. So sure business is different and every market in business is different. Every industry is different. And this is also why I'm so big on choosing your market because some markets you do just have to run harder. And if you don't wanna do that, then don't go into that category.
Justin:You know? If I I know that being a car salesman would require a a certain level of effort every day and hustle every day and whatever. And that's why I chose not to be a car salesperson. I don't wanna do that. So you have to choose, and find a fit that matches what you want.
Justin:And, it's not easy, but, yeah, I think it's worth trying for. Okay. So Jason Zukes says, do you think we've reached peak podcast, or is there more overall podcast growth? It kinda feels like there's a certain age group that enjoys podcasts. I think he's saying older people.
Justin:Younger generation lives on TikTok, YouTube, Twitch, etcetera. So I don't think we've reached peak podcast. I think, podcasting had a bump during the pandemic. I think we're just gonna return to 10, 15% growth, a year. There's different ways of measuring that.
Justin:Advertising growth is going to grow faster than that. I think it already is. But in terms of listenership, I think we're just back to our regular cadence of, you know, 10 to 15% growth in terms of new listeners every year. There are, global markets that are growing much faster than that for podcasting, Brazil, Mexico. So there's lots of growth there.
Justin:And then there's also, one of the benefits of having 4 kids who are all Gen z is that I get to, see how, you know, their lives kind of progress. And around 16, 17, they start listening to podcasts. Now maybe it's because they're my kids, but trust me if you I don't think they're doing it because of dad. They they find these shows on their own. Sometimes they discover them through YouTube and Instagram, and then they start listening based on that.
Justin:There's also seems to be I'll I'll link to this report my daughter did, on the transistor blog, but there seems to be this transition. You know, my daughter left home and now she's going to university. She's trying to figure out what it is to be an adult, and she's looking for models to follow who are not her parents. And she has she says her and her friends are increasingly reaching out to podcasts to get a sense of what it means to be an adult. And so they're looking she likes listening to podcasts by millennials, so people that are just ahead of her Yeah.
Justin:And hearing their experience. And, you know, it's like psychology. It's productivity. It's, you know, self care, all sorts of, topics that a young adult might be interested in. So I I think we're not at peak podcast.
Justin:I think it's gonna continue to increase, but we're back to the regular pace. John, what's something you've gotten better at over the past 4 years? Noah Bragg asks this question.
Jon:Oh, that's a good question. I think we were just talking about this the other day. I I think I've gotten a lot better at I don't know if taking criticism is the right one, but but having my ideas and assumptions challenged as far as the product goes. Yeah. Especially after we hired Jason.
Jon:But you've you know, you and I have kind of went back and forth in a few things too. And Yeah. You know, I can get a little bullheaded and proud of what I built and not wanna change something or, like, a line of copy. I'm like, oh, yeah. That's fine.
Justin:Yeah. But Yeah. We work through
Jon:it, and, ultimately, like, whatever comes out in the end is far better than what I did.
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. No. I think that's true, actually, John. I think I I think it's also a matter of, as you get as you work with somebody for longer, you start to recognize the pattern.
Justin:So it's like, initially, I might, like, challenge you on something and then get rebuffed, but I just know that's just part of our process. Mhmm.
Jon:You know
Justin:what I mean? It's like, okay. Well, I'm gonna. And in the same way that I might present an idea and then you, you know, might critique it right away. I just know that's part of our process of figuring out what we're gonna do.
Justin:And, ultimately, it does, I think, create a better outcome, when we do do that.
Jon:Yep.
Justin:So, yeah, I I'd agree with that. I think that's great.
Jon:How about you?
Justin:I think for me, you know, better is sure. I I think I've gotten better at some things, but I think the, a better way of putting it is I just have more awareness. One thing I brought up quite a bit is, like, I just know that if you and I are not connecting, with a call once a week, that we we just can't let that go for too long Mhmm. Or it's not good for our relationship. In the same way, I think you and I need at least one, in person meetup every year.
Justin:And if it goes too long, it really affects our relationship.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:And so, I think having awareness about those things, and I think my default when we when we started was just feeling like, you know, I can just be in my little my little cave working on my stuff and your in your cave working on your stuff. And why would why would we need to interact? And, I'm just realizing how important that is. Yeah. And, when we don't have it, it is, I yeah.
Justin:I just think it it's not good for the relationship, and I can also see it with our team. You know? We I I was kinda hesitant to do any sort of meeting for a long time, And just having this standing weekly meeting every Thursday, it's just good for us. It's good for us emotionally. It's good for us as human beings.
Justin:And sometimes I treat myself like just a working robot, like a robot that just does stuff and goes home at the end of the night. And it's been nice to recognize, like, this human part of it. Like, part of the reason we're doing this is so that I can connect with you, so that we can connect with Jason and Helen, so we can have this human experience of laughing together, working on something together, trying to overcome challenges together. That part has been really great.
Jon:I would agree with that.
Justin:What was the lowest point or equivalent of rock bottom in your 4 year transfer history? I I I don't know if there's again, we haven't really had anything. I think at the beginning, something we sometimes gloss over is just how hard it was on John to be working a full time job and coming home evenings and weekends, and how hard it was on me financially to have, this waiting on this other thing that we were investing so much time in.
Jon:I think the lowest point for me was certainly near the beginning, which is unfortunate. I mean, it's it's how it happened, but, like, I was just done at my old job, right? I was, like, checked out. I didn't want to be there. I didn't wanna come in in the morning.
Jon:I was excited about this other thing that I was working on with you, and, you know, it affected my relationships and stuff because I was was not in a good mood or, you know, needed to spend time with this other thing when I was done working at the other job. Yes. So I'm, yeah, I'm glad I could leave my other job as quickly as I could.
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And in retrospect, this is why I've softened a little bit on, pure bootstrapping versus raising money because I mean, ultimately, now we're really happy that it worked out. But, you know, there's a world in which things took longer, and it really affected both of us mentally, and that could have been really bad.
Justin:So, you know, if you need if you've got a good idea and a market that wants that idea and you feel like you've got built in advantages and you can convince somebody to give you a $100 or $200 to build focus on building the product for a year, I think that can be really beneficial. Daniel Lazar, who is host of the For A Living podcast, great transistor customer. He's got a few good questions, but I think we only have time for what have you learned about partnership that you wish the world could hear? This kinda goes off the other one we just had, but another thought I had is just, and this applies, I think, to all relationships is, a partnership is a tension between individuals working on themselves and figuring out their own issues and then bringing that to the table, hopefully, with someone else who is also working on their issues. Yeah.
Justin:And, I think one of the reasons it's been great to be with John is that we kinda bonded over mental health stuff, like sharing personal experiences from our lives. And so I already knew he was the kind of person who is working on himself and that I could talk about, you know, just life stuff with.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:And, I think it would be challenging to be in a partnership with someone who's not self aware, with someone who's not going to therapy, with someone who's not taking care of themselves, and that often doesn't get talked about. You know? So often people are looking for a technical cofounder or they're looking for a marketing cofounder. Yeah. And those are both good things to look for, but there's this other layer of, and it can even be cheesy.
Justin:Like, you know, sometimes I'll, you know, we haven't done this in a while, but I would share with John, like, one of those cheesy personality quizzes.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:And we would go through those together. And there is something about that of, working on yourself and then coming together and then working on your relationship, but it can only really work if both parties are motivated in that way.
Jon:I would agree with that. Yeah. I mean, it's I would say the partnership is about a lot more than just the business. Yeah. Right?
Jon:Like, that's definitely a big part of it, but there's just so much more that goes on there.
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, to to make this, like, more, real I mean, there was a time during the pandemic I was really worried about you, John. Yeah.
Justin:Like, just the the lockdowns in Chicago and, you know, you weren't able to get out and exercise and you're, I had a family full so I had a house full of people, but you're in your apartment by yourself. And I was definitely worried about you, and I think, that that kind of care and that also just, like, being the kind of partners that can encourage each other to say, hey, you know, take care of yourself, you know, is really, really key. So great question, Daniel. Yeah. Minh Phuc Tran says, would be fun and refreshing to hear what has been the most fun and memorable experience during your 4 year journey.
Justin:Most startup podcasts are about how to succeed, but really talk about the things they remember, you know, after the success, I guess. Fun. I mean, this is kinda again about our our friendship and relationship, but, like, it it's fun snowboarding together.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:It's fun going to Portland together. You know, the I think those for me have been the shared experiences have been, in person have been some of the most fun.
Jon:Yeah. Definitely.
Justin:Which is funny because then it just makes me feel like, why don't we invest in that more?
Jon:Yeah. We don't really do it that often.
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:I mean, COVID kinda changed everything, but we certainly could. Because, yeah, it's great.
Justin:I mean,
Jon:you know, whether it's just a meet up or we work on some stuff or just hang out or Mhmm. Talk about a lot.
Justin:Also say, I I think our staff meetings have been fun. Yeah. Just like the we often, like, are laughing during those. So, yeah, I think that's been fun. And I would also say, you know, in terms of fun, and memorable, it's like, yeah, when we release something we're really proud of and just I I think you and I were talking about this the other day, but with these achievement badges we just released, I just loved, like, seeing how that idea kind of percolated up through Slack.
Justin:And then you and Jason kinda took hold of it. And then when it got those badges designed and then, you know, worked on the thing, and then we continued to see evidence that people wanted it. And then eventually to get it out in the world and to have people respond in such an exuberant way. Like, our customers just love it.
Jon:Yeah. That and that was a long feature. I mean, we had those badges done in, like, November December of 2021. And they were done. Yeah.
Jon:And we just sort of like had other stuff to do, but they were sitting there waiting for us to build it. We built parts of it at a time and then finally finish it up. But, yeah, it was fun. That was I mean, for me, the the whole thing is, like and I tell people this all all the time, like, when they ask what I'm doing and if I like it. It's, like, I get to come to work and work with 3 great friends.
Jon:And, like, Jason was a great friend before this. Yeah. And it's just like, you know, there's always, like, is this a good idea? Like, how is this gonna change our relationship? Yeah.
Jon:And I also don't see him physically often enough either, and he's not that far away. But, like, it's great just coming to work with, like, friends you enjoy being around
Gavin:Yeah.
Jon:Every day.
Justin:Yeah. Like, it's really Yeah. Absolutely.
Jon:I don't think, you know, I don't think a lot of people have that necessarily. I mean, you know, you make friends at work and at the office, but it's like it's not always the same, especially with bigger companies, like Yeah. But, yeah, it's just it is
Justin:my fault. One reason it would be hard to sell
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:Because that to have to go and work at Amazon, you know, would be, I think, very difficult.
Jon:And, like, we'd probably largely be working together still, but there'd be, like, this other, like, shadow of management hanging over us. And Yeah. That would be, that'd be tough. Mhmm.
Justin:I think we're gonna power through all of these questions, but we may break this up into 2 episodes. So just and FYI, Chris. Okay. So so this one came up a couple times. Connor asks and Jason Zuk asks, what is your definition of enough for a transistor, and how has it evolved over the years?
Justin:And Jason asks, how are you combating the constant urge to grow, improve, and the hedonic treadmill that is being a human being and always thinking we have to strive for bigger, better. Personally, I have never really resonated with this question. I understand why people ask it. I understand why it's I I understand this idea of being at peace and content. For me, the fun part is the idea of, like, how can we grow this?
Justin:How can we get more people? Now I don't I I have enough in terms of I think about enough in terms of momentum, in terms of pace, in terms of whatever. So if we go back to running, I wanna run at a good pace for as long as I can until I can't run anymore. And this pace feels good. And so, do I have enough money now?
Justin:Yeah. But, you know, I like I said, it would make me feel more secure to have a reasonable chunk of cash for my family. So am I still striving for more? Yeah. But the the big thing for me is if I had to force myself to run harder and faster in order to achieve, you know, by the time I'm 70, I wanna have at least 4 or 5,000,000 in the bank.
Justin:I I don't think it's worth changing the pace because this pace is enough for me Right. At least for right now.
Jon:Yeah. I mean, if you were working if you had to change your pace and your lifestyle and how you worked and everything by the to get to that point when you're 70, like, you might not enjoy those years at all. And then and then what's the point? You're 70 and you have a bunch of money, but Yeah. You're burnout and unhealthy.
Jon:And I don't, yeah, I don't know what the I don't know what enough is really, but it's, like, it's already enough. Mhmm. Yeah. But I still enjoy it. I'm not but I'm not sitting here, like, oh, we have to grow huge and get more and bigger and, like
Justin:Yeah. Exactly.
Jon:I think that's I think that will happen as, like, an aftereffect of us just building a good product and, you know, helping our customers out and and all that.
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. Putting in a work at a reasonable pace. It's like in the same way that, you know, you can get real hyped up on, like, getting a perfect body or something and just go hard at the gym for a month. But, really, what's gonna make a lasting change is walking to work every day and eating, you know, a salad every day or whatever those Yeah.
Justin:Little and just finding a pace that works for you. And, you know, the other thing is, like, when I go running see, now I'm talking like I'm a runner. When I go running, which has been 2 times this year, I'm not I'm it's not enough for me to stay at whatever it is, a 3 or 4 kilometer run. You know? I want to hit a 5 kilometer run, and eventually, I wanna work my way up to a 10 kilometer run.
Justin:So it's not enough to just stay put. That's that's there is no, you know, if I had to stay put, I don't know if I would wanna keep living. Right. What's what makes sense is seeking more at a reasonable pace, and, that's kind of still where I'm at. Jon Yong Fook, who's an if you're not following him, he's an awesome indie SaaS founder, founder of Bannerbear.
Justin:He said, what are your thoughts now on open startups versus private, the most impactful decisions you've made, and how has your job changed year to year? Open startups versus private, I think it was really good for us at the beginning. A big draw for transistor still, and one of our big advantages in the market is we told our story. And, I just had someone who's pretty big in the podcast industry reach out just cold email and say, hey. And I've been, like, trying to get on this person's radar forever.
Justin:And they just said, hey. I just listened to all the build your SaaS episodes after they listened to the Dave Zohrab episode because it was kind of about podcasting, and then they went back through our story
Jon:Mhmm.
Justin:And, just really enjoyed it. So I think it's helpful at the beginning. I think I don't think it's healthy to do it forever. Just even like the buffer, which was kind of like the first company that did open startups. I'll try to include this tweet.
Justin:But now the big thing going around Twitter is that they've peaked in terms of ARR, and now they're going down the other side. And that must not be awesome for morale to have to share that publicly.
Jon:Right. Yeah. I mean, I I think it helped us. I think recording our podcast and our journey was more impactful than showing our financials. But Yeah.
Jon:Yeah. Yeah. You turned it off.
Justin:Yep. Yeah. Me too. Most impactful decisions you've made. Again, I think it's just it really is the foundation you set and the things you put in motion when you start.
Justin:Yep. And so, the actually, the only other thing I think I would have changed at the beginning is, you know, we hire a lawyer. We asked each other a bunch of questions. I would have, I think, hired one of these, startup founder counselors or therapists or whatever
Jon:Mhmm.
Justin:To just sit down with each of us and be a middle person to really walk through, like, some of those questions that, you know, maybe you don't wanna ask Right. At the beginning. Because I think we just got lucky in so many ways. Like, the the old joke on the podcast was I was like, John, you could be an axe murderer, and I wouldn't know. You know?
Justin:Like, that like, we knew each other, but it was like, I think we just got lucky, and this would have been impossible if either of us had chosen a bad partner.
Jon:Right. You know what I mean? You didn't know about the background check it in here. I didn't tell you about that. It was great.
Jon:Like You're good.
Justin:There there's, like, you you just hired a PI who, like, could take photos of me instead of
Jon:He surveilled your house for weeks.
Justin:So. He just drinks a lot of coffee. Eats a donut every week. They're just, like actually just looking at my Instagram feed. So, yeah, it's who you partner up with.
Justin:It's what market you choose. I'm gonna keep banging that drum forever. It matters so much. And, the other thing is, it was all of the decisions John and I had made individually up to that point in, you know, I'm 38 and John's 37, when we we decide to partner up, everything we've done in the past that we are now bringing to that relationship, and we are now bringing to that company, the people we met, the network we built, the skills we built, all of that stuff that is incredibly impactful. So to to have cultivated a life that by the time we were ready to partner up, we had all of this, you know, these rich rich, fields to cultivate from, That was very helpful.
Jon:I will I'll add one more thing to to that, and I think that is to hire slowly and deliberately. Yeah. We waited a while to hire. I mean, we hired Helen part time at first, and that worked out really well, and then hired her on full time, which, you know, we definitely talked about. It wasn't the easiest decision.
Jon:Yep. But it worked out really well. And then hiring Jason, we went back and forth a lot on that. And if we wanted to hire another developer, it is because of the, you know, the it's our largest expense by far, and we didn't really know if we needed it. We didn't know if we wanted to, you know, increase the pace of the parts of the product we're building.
Jon:Yeah. But, ultimately, that worked out, I think, better than either of us could have expected.
Justin:Yeah. So Yeah. And and it is worth being protective about that. You know? Like, we do get people applying for jobs every once in a while, and I appreciate those people who are putting themselves out there.
Justin:I think it's really, it's hard applying for jobs and asking to work at places, but we are incredibly protective of this group we built. Yeah. And, the next hire we hire will almost certainly be somebody that we have a existing relationship with. And so I think, again, that goes into that idea of cultivating, you know, having 3 decades or 2 decades or whatever it was by the time we met of cultivating these relationships that we could, you know, tap into. Yep.
Justin:So yeah. But hiring slowly has been great. We when there's a reset there's a looming recession, and we are not worried that we're not gonna be able to meet payroll. Yep. How has your job changed year to year?
Justin:I mean, definitely changed once we hired people.
Jon:Mhmm.
Justin:Once we hit, you know, a certain number, there were certain parts where I relaxed for sure. Yeah. And I think that's been really healthy. And also when you add people, I think there is another part of it that speeds up, which is now you have other people challenging you and then giving you ideas. And, you know, Helen's talking to customers all the time and saying bringing us stuff, and it's like, okay.
Justin:Well, now we gotta listen to this stuff, and it's important. And, so I think, you know, now the pace of I I still think we're calm, but the pace definitely changed once we hired people.
Jon:Yeah. I think we I think if we hadn't hired people, we we may have started to become a little complacent and sort of just, like, you know, thought everything was fine. But Yeah. I they both injected, like, a really nice amount of energy
Justin:Yes.
Jon:Into our day to day and the the company in general.
Justin:Yep. Yep. Totally. Totally. Totally.
Speaker 6:Hey, build your SaaS listeners. Chris, the editor here. As Justin alluded to in the episode, we're gonna break this up into 2 episodes. So make sure to come back for the next episode when Justin and John answer your questions about advice for startups, deciding on their tech stack, how they decided on pricing, hiring, and whether they have more or less stress in their lives now compared to when they started transistor.fm. And before we go, let's get John back in here to thank the Patreon supporters.
Jon:Let's see who we got here. We have Jason Charnes, Mitchell Davis from recruit kit.com.au, Marcel Falais from we are bold dotaf, Alex Payne, Bill Kondo, Anton Zorin from prodcamp.com, Harris Kenny from the intro to CRM podcast, Oleg Kulik, Ethan Gunderson, Ward Sandler from Memberspace, Russell Brown from Odevo dotcom, Noah Praill, Colin Gray, Austin Loveless, Michael Sitfer, Paul Jarvis, and Jack Ellis from Fathom, my brother Dan Buddha, Darby Frey, Adam Devander, Dave Junta.
Justin:Junta. And
Jon:Kyle Fox from get reward for dot com.
