Should a parent with young kids try to bootstrap a new startup?
Welcome to Build your SaaS. This is the behind the scenes story of building a web app in 2023. I'm Justin. And today I have an internet friend joining me, Aaron Francis, how's it going, Aaron?
Aaron Francis:Good. It's, it's exciting to be here. I'm a longtime listener, first time caller.
Justin Jackson:this is the first time we've talked. And it's it's very strange Because I listen to you all the time. You have had a few podcasts. You have the Hammerstone podcast. Right?
Aaron Francis:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:Framework friends. Am I missing anything?
Aaron Francis:A long time ago, I had one called the music makers. That was, like, that was, like, 6 or 7 years ago, but it is now defunct. So that was my first podcast.
Justin Jackson:Alright. Well, I I listen to your voice all the time, and I also interact with you all the time on Twitter. And we are going to discuss, pretty hot topic this this time, which is can you bootstrap a new startup And do that while you have young kids at the same time. So can you, bootstrap a family And Bootstrap, a new company at the same time. And, I had A Twitter thread on this.
Justin Jackson:And then I also wrote kind of a a blog post that that encompass some of my thoughts, Which is me really reflecting on trying to build multiple things when my kids were young. And now wondering if that was the best idea, if I should have just maybe waited a bit longer to, do both. Just because, As you know, starting a family is a lot of energy Mhmm. And requires a lot of focus, a lot of time. And birthing a company also is a lot of energy and a lot of time.
Aaron Francis:Yep.
Justin Jackson:So maybe to start out, For folks who don't know you, explain kinda what you're doing right now professionally, and then share as much about your family situation as you'd like. So, yeah, what are you doing professionally, and then what's the the parenting situation right now?
Aaron Francis:Professionally, I have a full time job At a company called PlanetScale, we're a MySQL, platform company. So I work Full time. Full time job as a I'm a developer educator, which means I basically, you know, make a bunch of videos, write a bunch of articles. I did Recently, I did a very big course on on MySQL. And so that's kind
Justin Jackson:of amazing by the way. As a Oh, thanks. As as a sidestep, I think Folks should go check that out. How do they search for that? It's just like, is it MySQL planet scale?
Justin Jackson:Will that find Yeah. That would
Aaron Francis:probably do it. MySQL for developers, PlanetScale would probably would probably do it better. PlanetScale.com/courses would get you there as well.
Justin Jackson:It's awesome. People should check it
Aaron Francis:out. Thanks. Yeah. It was a lot of fun, and a huge amount of work, which we can talk about as a part of, know what we're talking about here, because I, you know, work at this company, which I love, and I love, you know, the stuff that I do there, which I think is important. But I'm also trying to, like, bootstrap a company on the side.
Aaron Francis:And so I have a partner named Colleen, and she and I have been working on this for, like, 2 years now, and it is not, like, it is not successful yet. It is not making us enough money to where I can quit. And so I'm kind of, like, I'm kind of at the very beginning of this or, you know, hopefully in the middle. And so when I was seeing you talk about this on Twitter, I was like, I will like, we can do an old fashioned, Like an old fashioned debate, and, like, I'll take the other side. Like, I have I think I have some things to say on the other side, because I also am dad to 2, 2 year olds.
Aaron Francis:So I have I have boy, girl, twins, and they turned 2 on Saturday. So just, like, a few days ago. So yeah. So I've You are in it. Am very much in it.
Aaron Francis:Yes.
Justin Jackson:You were in it, like, you were you were already on level 2 right before right when you started.
Aaron Francis:Yeah. Exactly.
Justin Jackson:Are you playing level 1, but with 2 controllers at the same time? What what what metaphor
Aaron Francis:do you like? Whichever one of those is harder. Yeah. Yeah.
Justin Jackson:I can play 1 character at a time, but I have to play 2?
Aaron Francis:Yeah. Yeah. The the on on that note, the good thing for us is we never had Just one child, so we're like, I don't know. I guess this is as hard as it is. Like, I didn't
Justin Jackson:This is what it's like.
Aaron Francis:Don't have anything to look back fondly on and be like, oh, when there was just One of them is like, wow. They're both here now. So
Justin Jackson:Cool. Well, that I think that sets things up, perfectly. I was I was just looking for this tweet that I saw you had, which was something to the effect of you feel like you're in this stage of life where you want to be kinda going after it.
Aaron Francis:Yeah. And I call it my my maximum effort error.
Justin Jackson:Maximum effort error. So maybe explain that for me. What does it mean to be in maximum effort error?
Aaron Francis:Yeah. So this is something I've I've been thinking about a lot. I think primarily since the twins have come, and, you know, Colleen and I are trying to bootstrap This company, and I'm trying to my my wife is a stay at home mom. She works harder than I do, but she works at home. Right?
Aaron Francis:And so I'm I'm the I'm the sole breadwinner, and so, like, I feel a lot of that I feel a lot of that pressure. I feel a lot of that weight of Responsibility. And so I think I, at some point, just decided that I was okay Saying that for this period of time, and I don't know what I don't know when this period of time ends, and I think that's an important thing to to note, But for this period of time, this is gonna be a lot of work, and I'm gonna put in the maximum amount of effort that I can. And then the latter half of that tweet was, at some point in my life, I would like to enter into the semi retired leisurely builder era of my life. I would like to do the Daniel Vesalo where I just kinda, like, hang out and do a small bet and make, you know, $200,000.
Aaron Francis:But, like, Mhmm. I'm not there yet, and I think it was helpful for me. It was helpful for me to put a name on it to say, like, I I see things that I want. I see, you know, Adam Wadden and Ben Orenstein, like, running these companies, And now you and John running these companies where you do have margin and you do have freedom.
Justin Jackson:Mhmm.
Aaron Francis:I see that and I want that, but I I'm not there. Mhmm. And to put a name on what where I am, which is my maximum effort era, has helped me mentally be like, okay. This is the Thing that you're doing right now, and this is importantly an era that won't last forever because I'll tell you, it can't last forever, and that has helped me mentally get to a good spot with that.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. Yeah. I think, I mean, a lot of people Listening to this can identify with that that thought of I mean, it it's what drives a lot of people to wanna start their own company Is this idea of I want something better for my family? This has actually been in the past when I've had, Not disagreements, but sometimes there's folks in the Bootstrapper community. You know, we have things where we don't understand each other.
Justin Jackson:And when we got on a call, what ended up being true was that this particular thing was I I think someone had said, you know, the money wasn't a big motivator for them. And I was like, The money's always been a big motivator for me. And, you know, money is ultimately, the line would be money is ultimately not a, You know, it's not a worthwhile goal. And I said, the money has always been a worthwhile goal for me. And I think what we ended up realizing was this person wasn't married and didn't have kids.
Justin Jackson:And when you're on the other side of that And you're all you're really thinking about is, like, how can I provide a good life for my family? And, a lot of that has to do with a, money, and then b, kind of the flexibility and freedom and autonomy that can come from Owning your own business.
Aaron Francis:Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:So and does that kind of describe your goal? Like, if you're thinking that the end result for the maximum effort era, You've said, you know, I I I see these people running companies, and that's what I want. It's it's all of these things in a row.
Aaron Francis:Yeah. I think that I think that does pretty accurately describe the the end goal. I'm I'm I think with you on the On the side of that conversation, like, the money is a motivator. Yes. Absolutely.
Aaron Francis:The money the money is a motivator. Like, kids need clothes. They need, you know, rooms to live in. Like yeah. Yeah.
Aaron Francis:They're gonna share a room because they're twins, but, hello. Like, we need space in a house, and houses cost money. So, yeah, the money is a motivator. I think there's a an you know, unfortunately, in the US, health care is a motivator, which Sucks, and health care is expensive. And so all of that, like, all of that wrapped up is is motivation.
Aaron Francis:There is also So, like, that's the very that's the very practical what is my duty as a husband and a father and the you know, in our case, the sole breadwinner of The household, like, what are my duties? And I take that extremely seriously. I think there is also, like, what are what are my hopes and dreams, man? Like, what are What is my duty to myself, and what are the things that, like, I want to do with my life? And, Like, those things those things super matter, and there are things that I am willing to sacrifice to try to make, We'll say for shorthand, to try to make my dreams come true, and there are things I'm not willing to sacrifice.
Aaron Francis:And I think that's an important, like, That's an important thing to talk about. Like, what are you sacrificing, and for what are you sacrificing? Because there's kinda two sides to that equation.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. So maybe describe for me what, what are you willing to sacrifice, and what have you kinda outlined as, like, the no go zone. Like, I I can't sacrifice this as I'm and and just to be clear, so right now you've got a full time job, you've got twins at home, And on the side, you're trying to bootstrap a brand new software company, with cofounder, which I think is is also another variable. And, you're still try you're working maximum effort, meaning I get up maximum effort on being a dad, maximum effort on being a spouse maximum effort on working for my employer. And then on the side, maximum effort on business building, which for you also has meant building my profile on Twitter, Building up, but, speaking at a bunch of conferences.
Justin Jackson:This is maximum effort in a spectrum of things.
Aaron Francis:In in many directions, but importantly, not every direction. Yeah. It is Okay. Yeah. It is maximum effort.
Justin Jackson:Like So describe the shape For me, what what are the contours of all that?
Aaron Francis:Yeah. So for example for example, that that course that we spoke about earlier for planet scale, that was maximum effort. That was Incredibly difficult because I'm, like, putting myself out there as the MySQL expert at a company that claims to be the the industry leading MySQL company. And so you can imagine the pressure of being, like, The public face of a public company in a world of database experts that want to find the Places that you were wrong. Right?
Aaron Francis:So you can imagine, like, the amount of effort that goes into that, the amount of production, you know, that shooting video is really Production in intense and, like Mhmm. It came out great, and I am Mhmm. So proud of it. And that's because I put in a huge amount of effort. Right?
Aaron Francis:So I think, yes, maximum effort in all of those directions. And to the question of, like, what am I willing to sacrifice? A lot of other things is is the answer. I think, Like, we talk about we being, like, the community. We talk about you shouldn't sacrifice certain things, And I think that's missing half of the conversation.
Justin Jackson:Like Mhmm.
Aaron Francis:What are you sacrificing for? So there's the thing you're sacrificing And the thing for which you are sacrificing. Right? And so Mhmm. To draw, like, to draw an absurd, You could say, like, I am willing to sacrifice my own life for the lives of my children.
Aaron Francis:A 100%. Like, if there's a car coming, I know which one of us is gonna get hit. Like, that's an easy thing to say. I'm willing to sacrifice my life for this. Yeah.
Aaron Francis:However, I am not willing to sacrifice my life so that PlanetScale could make a a sale that they wouldn't otherwise make. Right? Mhmm. And so the that equation is out of balance. Like, I'm willing to sacrifice my life a 100%, but for what?
Aaron Francis:Not for not so that PlanetScale can close a deal. Right? Yeah. So that's the absurd. Right?
Aaron Francis:So then you have to, like, Kinda back it down to what are the reasonableness. And so then the question becomes like, am I willing to sacrifice sleep? Am I willing to sacrifice sleep to spend more time on Twitter? I I I wanna say no because that's what I believe. Sometimes that doesn't you know, that's not true objectively.
Aaron Francis:But, like, I'm not willing to sacrifice sleep to spend more time arguing with people on Hacker News. I am not willing to do that. I am willing to sacrifice sleep to hopefully make my dreams come true.
Justin Jackson:Mhmm.
Aaron Francis:And, like, that's the kind of trade off that I'm working with right now is, like, I wake up As early as I can. And every day, I don't wanna get out of bed. Every day, I'm like, I would rather sleep in.
Justin Jackson:Mhmm.
Aaron Francis:But the the the question is, Are you gonna sleep in and then not work on your your side project that you're hoping is going to become a thing at some point, and in some way is going to fulfill this dream that you can't quite put your finger on.
Justin Jackson:Mhmm.
Aaron Francis:Or are you gonna are you gonna sleep in? And that's that's a question I ask myself every single morning.
Justin Jackson:What time are you waking up?
Aaron Francis:So these days, I'm waking up at about 6 and come straight out here to the shed the shed quarters, which is where I work, and do all my stuff in the morning. And then at about 7:30 or 45, depending on, the morning, I text my wife because I'm out in the shed quarters. I'm, like, 30 or 45, and she'll text back 30 or 45. And so I come in at 7:30 or 45 and help with, you know, getting them out of bed, doing breakfast, doing all that kind of stuff. And then I'm back out here at 8 30 between 8:30 and 9.
Aaron Francis:So I work from home. So I have a lot of things going for me. Right? My my wife is a is a stay at home mom. I work from home, so I literally Walk across the back deck.
Aaron Francis:The I I have a lot of other thing. Like, I have a partner in my side project. So I have these things going for me that I'm very cognizant of, and none of this is prescriptive because no one else is in my exact situation. But at 9 o'clock, I come back out, and it's, like, Time to start working for the day. And so I work remotely.
Aaron Francis:That's another thing. Like, my full time job is remote. I don't go into the office. Yeah. And then I work all day.
Aaron Francis:And then at night, like, 5:30 or 6, depending on, you know, when the boss tells me it's dinner time, I go in and I help with the kids' dinner. And so, You know, we do kids' dinner at, like, an absurd hour. They eat at, like, 5:30, and I'm like, wow. You guys are so so early. Why are you eating?
Aaron Francis:But, you know, they're 2. Yeah. And then I help put them to bed, and then I do the dishes, and then my wife and I will eat. And then it's a question of, like, Are we hanging out, me and her, or is she going somewhere? Am I going somewhere?
Aaron Francis:Or is it back to work?
Justin Jackson:Mhmm.
Aaron Francis:And that's when the rest of the the side work gets done. And then weekends are, you know, similar, different, but that that's the basic structure of a day.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. I mean, I I think the context, Obviously, context is everything. So this question, can you bootstrap a new startup When you have young kids, the answer is it depends. Especially in North America, there's this there's this Continuous thread of rugged individualism, Protestant work ethic. I'm going to, Hustle culture, you know, most notably Gary Vaynerchuk was kind of like, stay up till your eyeballs bleed And did that when he had young kids.
Justin Jackson:He's now divorced, I think. You know, context matters in all of this. And there's so many factors, and I think you've highlighted some of them. Number 1, do you have a job? Number 2, how demanding is that job?
Justin Jackson:Number 3, what you know, do you work remote, or are you commuting every day? Number 4, where's your partner in all of this? And that is a massive question.
Aaron Francis:Yeah. That
Justin Jackson:Yeah. The the the, The the response to the Twitter thread was there's quite a few people who said they thought that starting trying to bootstrap a company On top of having young kids, would only be possible if your spouse was a superhero doing 90% of the Housework and childcare. Part of my thinking in all of this, I think sometimes I just wanna be careful on my own, when I'm when I'm discussing things. I wanna be careful to say no. Be shy.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. It's okay. Well, I know. I wanna be careful when I'm communicating to people to say, if I'm gonna give general advice, the advice would be, it depends, But you really need to think through a lot of issues and some things that are easy to maybe even rationalize In the meantime, which is I I think my spouse is on top is in this. You know?
Justin Jackson:I think that and they're a superhero. They they're superhuman. They can do this with me. Humans are just actually humans. They're we we're all actually normal.
Justin Jackson:None of us are really super. The difference Between saying, for example, hey, honey. I'm gonna really put maximum effort into my job right now Because there's a high chance that if I put maximum effort into my career, there's a high chance I'm gonna get promoted. And that could mean us going from a 100,000 to a 130,000 or a 130,000 to a 180,000, and those jumps are significant. The the challenge with the business is that you are risking you're making this bet That requires an enormous amount of energy, time, focus.
Justin Jackson:And in some ways, at least for me, I guess this is where the individual comes in. You know, if I'm when I'm really good on Twitter, I'm thinking about tweets all the time, all the time. And when I'm when I'm really good in, and fully on maximum effort with business, I'm thinking about stuff all the time. Sure. And that is obviously gonna take my focus away from other things.
Justin Jackson:The risk you're doing You're making a bet. And with business, it's just very likely that a lot of those bets aren't gonna pay off. And that was certainly true for me. I've had multiple bets throughout my adult life. We had kids pretty young, so 22 is when we had Sadie.
Justin Jackson:You know, I was making bets there, and some of those bets were maximum effort, cost a lot, and didn't pan out. I've got, an inbox full of people who are sometimes in the same situation. They're like, I'm risking it all right now. Or I'm risking a big you know, I'm I'm taking this bet right now. And sometimes my advice is, you know, you could take those bets, But the foundation you're building this on matters a lot.
Justin Jackson:And sometimes it just makes sense to wait until the kids are out of diapers or until the kids are In school, before you take that bet Mhmm. And a lot of it has to do with margin. Like, if I lose this bet, How much can I afford to lose? If I lose this bet, will this, you know, send our family into a tailspin or me into a tailspin? So that's, I think, part of where I'm coming from is the to be a counternarrative where, you know, American dream, American, Protestant work ethic, all that stuff.
Aaron Francis:Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:The the the the balance on that is to say, well, hold on. You could wait. My wife and I did this after a first biz we had a retail business. Couple snowboard shops didn't work out. Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:She said and this is probably Part of the picture too is right. What does your spouse say? She said, I would really appreciate it if you just took a break from this until the kids are in school. So we did. You know, I just worked on career for the next however many years that was.
Justin Jackson:And I felt I felt like that was a Good decision to just wait and work on other things in the background, you know, do a little audience building.
Aaron Francis:Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:Make some connections, Get some skills. Anyway, so that's part of where I'm coming from. What what do you think about all of that?
Aaron Francis:Yeah. I think Everything you said is imminently reasonable. And I think that's the interesting thing about the discussion is that there are many reasonable takes, And I think it's incredibly important. I think as a as a covering of every reasonable Take it's incredibly important that people think about this and figure it out for themselves. So I think Mhmm.
Aaron Francis:I think a lot of times, Obviously, it's hard to have nuance on Twitter. That's not what it was invented for. So I think a lot of times, We'll see the narrative and the counternarrative, and then we come back to me, which is the counter counter narrative, right, which is basically the original narrative. Like, you gotta You gotta freaking work hard. And so Mhmm.
Aaron Francis:I think I think a lot of things. So let's start with, like, the people and you yourself who were saying, like, it it's a bet, And you're taking these bets, and what if they don't pay off? Right?
Justin Jackson:Yeah.
Aaron Francis:I feel pretty exposed on that right now because Colleen and my our business Isn't working. Right? So, like like, we're not making we're at the very beginning. I don't have the benefit to look back and rewrite some story and say this is, like, this is what you should do because I did I'm, like, I have no idea. I am In between trapezes, hoping that I catch the next one, and I'm on the show right now recording it in stone, And I have no idea if I'm gonna catch the next one or I'm gonna fall.
Aaron Francis:Right? And so
Justin Jackson:Yeah.
Aaron Francis:I feel that intimately. Like, I know that it's a bet, and I know that it might not work. What I will say again is I'll go back to, like, I'll go back to the sacrifice equation of, like, what am I willing to sacrifice And what am I not willing to sacrifice? So let's talk about I think there are stakeholders in this. Right?
Aaron Francis:Me as an individual, my spouse, and my kids. I am not willing to sacrifice time with my kids. I'm just I'm not willing to do it. We my kids and I can't have an informed discussion about that. They are 2 years old.
Aaron Francis:Right? So I'm not I'm not willing to say, like, I'm not willing to say, Hey. I would love to be inside for breakfast and be inside for dinner, but dad is working on his dream. I'm I'm sorry. Like, that is a reasonable decision to make.
Aaron Francis:That's one that I'm I have made, and I've made it the other way. And I've said, I'm gonna be inside for breakfast. I'm gonna be inside for dinner. Like and there are things that I would maybe rather do. I've decided this is more important to be with my kids.
Aaron Francis:So there's that. Then there's the question of, like, what have like, what about other things, like time with Time with my spouse. And that's different because she and I can talk about that and come to an agreement as as a unit and be like, okay. What are like, what's important? What's not important?
Aaron Francis:Is it important that we watch 2 hours of TV together every night? Mhmm. No. Turns out it's not. Like, that's fun.
Aaron Francis:Turns out that's really not that important. Does she care if I work instead of watch TV with her? She doesn't, your spouse, you know, your you, the listener, your spouse might. Mine doesn't. Right?
Justin Jackson:Mhmm.
Aaron Francis:So that's, like, 2 2 different parties. I think The the third party is me. Right? So there are things that I can sacrifice, that Really kinda only affect me. I mean, there are externalities, but, like, I can decide to get up earlier.
Justin Jackson:Mhmm.
Aaron Francis:I can decide to get up earlier, And I can decide that to me, it is more important that I try to fulfill whatever this thing inside of me is Mhmm. Than that I sleep until 7:30 and then walk out and get the kids up. Like, there is an amount of time, and there is a sacrifice I can make. I can decide I can decide that I don't watch sports. Like, I don't really have a huge desire to watch sports, but I also don't spend my entire Sunday watching NFL football because I do not care, and I think there's something more important.
Aaron Francis:And I want, like, I want to give something up to have the space to work on this thing that I want to come true in my life. I don't have other hobbies. People are like, what are your hobbies? Man, my hobbies are work.
Justin Jackson:Yeah.
Aaron Francis:And that is a decision that I've that I've made. I I, like, I don't even I can't even make up a hobby. Like, I guess also sports. Like, playing basketball maybe is a hobby. I don't have that hobby.
Aaron Francis:My hobby my hobby is trying to make my dreams come true, and is it worth it? It's a risk. Yeah. But Yeah. But the equation is not, I'm going to sacrifice the youth of my children to Try to build a business and then have the business fail.
Aaron Francis:Mhmm. Like, that is an equation that is too far for me. I'm too risk averse to take that, and I think personally for me, That would make me regret my life, and I don't want that. I want to regret very little if possible. Yeah.
Aaron Francis:If I look back if I look back in 10 years And the business has failed, and I am sleepier than I otherwise would be. And I sacrificed a lot of, like, You know, fun nights and weekends, like, I don't know, go karting or whatever hobbies are. Like Mhmm. That's a that's a thing I'm willing to look back on and say that sacrifice was worth it even if it didn't play out.
Justin Jackson:How much are you sacrificing other things like friendships?
Aaron Francis:In my estimation, very little. So
Justin Jackson:Okay.
Aaron Francis:I do, I do a it's the weirdest schedule. Once every 3 weeks, I go to breakfast With a big group of guys, we do a bible study every Wednesday night. We go to church every Sunday. I see friends Probably once or twice a weekend. So I I see friends quite a bit, actually.
Justin Jackson:Okay. That's pretty good.
Aaron Francis:The Yeah. Especially for a 34 year old with, you know, with kids. That's a lot.
Justin Jackson:You're right. Like, that the way you split that up is is was great because, You know, you've got your kids, your spouse, and then you've got you. And the you part is tricky Because it really depends on how well you know yourself, how well you really know yourself, How well you can you know, for me, personally, so much of what you're saying is exactly how I've felt My entire life. Mhmm. Hobbies?
Justin Jackson:What hobbies? Work is my hobby. You know, people say, well, why can't you just be satisfied? You've got a good job. Why can't you just be satisfied with that?
Justin Jackson:I said, I'm just not content to sit here and do this. Why are you willing to make this risk? Not just one risk, multiple risks. Why are you willing to make these bets? Why are you willing to invest yourself in this thing?
Justin Jackson:And it was because I had this dream That life could be better, that life could be different, that we could get somewhere that would make that could potentially make those bets worthwhile. On the other side of it, now I've been through it. And I think, some of my rosiness that I had when I was younger has gone away, especially when it comes to advising other people and what they should do. Because in retrospect, it's like, wow. We made it.
Justin Jackson:So honestly, on this side, it is better. It's just better. Yeah. You know, the the
Aaron Francis:I believe that.
Justin Jackson:The The the money's better. The the schedule's better. The, it's the sense of purpose is better. When things are going well, this can obviously, all of this is still subject to change. And, you know, I have friends who have also achieved this and they're Feeling the same way.
Justin Jackson:This is it's why Tyler Tringus says this is the the new American dream because, you know, it it is substantially When it works, it's substantially better. But as I've, you know, had I've had a blog and a podcast and a community for aspiring Bootstrappers for a long time. And giving advice has gotten a lot harder, especially if I'm honest about my experience, which was At the time, I said, you know, when I was really hustling, I felt like, you know, I don't have any hobbies, and that's okay. I am willing to sacrifice this thing. It's oh, it's fine.
Justin Jackson:And there were some things, some blind spots that I didn't see that, ended up really affecting me. And I was talking about this with my wife, and I'm like, you know, I it's so hard because On one hand, I'm like, this life is better. But on the other hand, I can now see everything you have to pass through to get here, Or at least that I did. I'm sure it's easier for some people. The question I don't have an answer to is can you accomplish all of this Without all that risk, without all that pain, without all that and by risk, I mean, Like, real burnout.
Justin Jackson:Like Mhmm. Real like, everything comes to a head at the same time, and It's all falling apart. Mhmm. And you don't know if you're gonna make it through kind of period. My wife sometimes says, you know, I don't know.
Justin Jackson:Maybe that's just how life is. To accomplish something like that, you're there's just gonna be the risk of pain. There's this other part of me though that wants to believe that in the same way that other people who've gone ahead of me have been able to reduce some of my pain Mhmm. Like, I've had talks Jason Cohen that have substantially removed a lot of unneeded pain from my life. I I think part of my position now is I'm like, I think there is the potential for some people to avoid some unnecessary pain, Some unnecessary risks, some unnecessary pressure.
Justin Jackson:And for some folks, that will mean, hey. I'm just gonna I'm just gonna wait until Mhmm. For me to to to, you know, ratchet this up. The right advice at the wrong time is the wrong advice. Right?
Justin Jackson:That's the that's the hard thing about giving advice.
Aaron Francis:Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:And so I wonder if we could Well, first of all, why don't you respond to that? And then, and then we can go from there. Maybe in identifying more more of those factors, more of those things that might help people make a decision one way or the other in terms of evaluating their own situation. But, yeah, any any thoughts on what I I just said there?
Aaron Francis:Yeah. So to To the question of unnecessary pain, unnecessary risk, of course, I don't have I don't have any answers, but what I hear a lot Is I, for for the purposes of this conversation, you, Justin, you have made it. I'm gonna say that you've made it. Whatever that means to people listening, you've made it. I hear a lot of people who have made it say, you all you all can make it, but, like, you don't don't do it my don't do it the way that I did it.
Aaron Francis:And the way that everyone who has made it, the way that they did it was they worked really freaking hard. And, like, each one of you Each one of you made separate mistakes, and so Jason Cohen's like, I made mistake a, b, and c, so don't do that. And you're like, ah, fantastic. Adam Wavin's like, I made mistakes d, e, and f Because I listened to Jason. But everyone made mistakes.
Aaron Francis:Everyone made tactical mistakes, relational mistakes, you know, mistakes of direction, whatever. But what I see everyone having in common, except maybe Daniel Vassallo and DHH, they're all like, I worked incredibly freaking hard, and I sacrificed things to get to where I am. And then, you know, There are the 2 outliers who are like, no. You can do it in 10 hours a week. And I'm like, that would be amazing.
Aaron Francis:I would love to do that, but I I haven't been able to crack that nut. Right? So what everyone else says when they get to the top, when they make it is like, hey. I've made it, and it's awesome. But it was really hard work, so don't, like, don't do it.
Aaron Francis:And I'm like, How am I supposed to get there then? I am willing to do the hard work. Like, that doesn't scare me. What scares me, honestly, what scares me Is not working hard and reaching the end and thinking, god, I wish I had worked harder. Yeah.
Aaron Francis:Like, reaching the end and thinking not, like, Not not I wish I had given more of myself to a company. Like, I don't freaking care about that. What I what I Fear the most is reaching the end and thinking, I wish I had watched less TV. I wish I'd gotten up a little bit earlier, and I wish I'd tried to make my dreams come true. Like Mhmm.
Aaron Francis:That's pretty terrifying. Like, that's pretty terrifying. And so I have to balance that with Reaching the end and thinking, I wish I'd spent more time with my kids. That's even more terrifying. Right?
Justin Jackson:Mhmm.
Aaron Francis:The the the fear of unfulfilled dreams is not as great as the fear of not fulfilling my role as a father. Right? Like
Justin Jackson:Yeah.
Aaron Francis:I can't even I can't handle that. I can't handle that fear. Yeah. But both of those Fears both of those fears are pretty strong. And when you look when you when you put yourself at the end and look back, you think, Man, I do not care about watching The Office for a 57th time.
Aaron Francis:Mhmm. When I could open my computer and try to make this thing that is inside me like, I could try to make this thing happen. Like Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:I
Aaron Francis:don't have hobbies, but you know what? Painters like to paint. Right? What is a painter's hobby? I don't know.
Aaron Francis:They probably paint. Like, I'm a I'm a programmer. I like to build things. I like to make things. My hobby is making things, is building things.
Aaron Francis:Like, You know, the I'm sure the painter's parents are always like, why don't you get a real job? You're just a painter. The painter's like, I have to paint.
Justin Jackson:Like Yeah.
Aaron Francis:I have a job because I have I have duties as a father and as a husband, but why don't I have hobbies? Because I have to paint. Like, I have to do this thing, And I am hoping that it will work, and I am going on the record while I'm midair between 2 trapezes saying
Justin Jackson:Mhmm.
Aaron Francis:It is worth it for me right now, and I am very, very aware that in 5 years or 10 years, I may be coming on, You know, Justin's build your SaaS 2 point o and being like, my guy, it didn't work. Yeah. But I'm willing to say, like, I have counted the costs at this point. And so far, I've weighed it, and I've measured it, and I think I think it's worth it.
Justin Jackson:I mean, this is why it's so individual. Now I don't really know what's going on with you. I don't have a an omnipotent view of how you're doing psychology, how you're really doing, how Your relationship with your wife and your kids really is it's it's sometimes, it you know, none of us can really have that. But, based on what I know about your situation And based on what I'm hearing, if I was advising you, I would probably say you should probably go for it because Mhmm. You seem to have a lot of the The margin where you need it.
Justin Jackson:So if if you have a partner who is like, yeah. Go for it. I There no hesitation. Like, go go go. I would say, well, that's a pretty good sign.
Justin Jackson:If you have a partner that is, This is what I've seen as I've talked to a lot of couples who have you know, where the one person's building the business, the other is not, is sometimes there's a slight hesitation On by on one of the partners or they don't fully understand what this means. I'm building a business. Okay. What does that mean practically? And problems start where there's not a full understanding of what this is actually going to entail, of what it actually is gonna mean in terms of sacrifice, what it actually means in terms of, a bet, and all those things.
Justin Jackson:But it seems like in your situation, that's pretty solid.
Aaron Francis:I I will say as as an interjection here, I think my wife is in the second category of, I guess, like, she's in the category of, like, I don't really know what that means, but that's great. And the reason that it works is because of the things I've decided are okay to sacrifice and the things that are not okay to sacrifice.
Justin Jackson:Mhmm.
Aaron Francis:So she's like, I don't really know Like, you're on your computer when you're working, you're on your computer when you're side working, and you're on your computer when you're playing. So, like
Justin Jackson:Oh my god.
Aaron Francis:Sure. Do whatever you want. Like, I I don't really know.
Justin Jackson:If there if there were spouses listening to this right now, that is, like, 90% of This goes, it just went, yeah, Frank. What the what's the deal? Always on the computer.
Aaron Francis:Here here's the thing. I haven't I haven't asked her, like, I haven't asked her to make the same level of sacrifice that I'm making. I have asked her to make sacrifices. Yes. Like, there are nights where I'm like, hey.
Aaron Francis:I'm gonna go back outside. Is that okay? And she's like, Sure. That's fine.
Justin Jackson:Mhmm.
Aaron Francis:But I'm not asking her to, like, do everything in the morning and do everything at dinner time when I would otherwise be available. Right? So, like Mhmm. During the day, I am I am full time w 2. But outside of those hours, like, I should be available if I were not working on side stuff, and so I am Mhmm.
Aaron Francis:Because I sacrificed other things. So, like, yes, my spouse is incredibly supportive, and I'm under no illusions that I could do this if she were Working outside of the home, but it's not like she is team she is team business. She's just like, yeah. That's great. You I know that you need to Fill this thing, and, also, you're here to help me.
Aaron Francis:So, like, do whatever you want, man.
Justin Jackson:And and it's probably fine as long as those Expectations are somewhat compatible. I've been running Mega Maker since 2013. And in the midst of that, there's been Every once in a while, just when you have that many people go through, family stuff comes up. And, a recurring trend is that The one partner thought that everything was fine, that they were on the same page with their spouse, that that everyone understood the risks and the sacrifice and all of that. And then but in reality, they didn't.
Justin Jackson:It can cause a lot of pain if there's not a lot of communication And a lot of understanding. You can think somebody understands, but it's that Some of the it's often those little things that can that can grow bigger if you're not careful.
Aaron Francis:-Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:-And But I I've also seen the opposite. I've seen 2 people who are like, we're in this family together, and this is how I see my role, and this is how you see your role, and we're gonna do this, And we are just solid in in that. Yep. And, so they're both can work. The things to be careful about if you're listening It's really getting on the same page.
Justin Jackson:I I mean, one thing I would I I think is pretty good general advice is, I would've I would have definitely gone to therapy for myself personally and with my partner way earlier in the process Yeah. And had a 3rd party who is trained in asking the right questions to say, so why don't you each describe what you think is gonna happen here Mhmm. And what's gonna be involved. And let's really just kinda talk it out. You know?
Aaron Francis:I would echo that. I mean, I've been going to counseling Individually for, I don't know, 5 years, something like that. My wife has been going for 15 years, and we've been going we've almost been married 10 years, And we've probably gone to counseling for on and off for 5 or 6 years. Like
Justin Jackson:Yeah.
Aaron Francis:It's just it's just helpful. Like, it's just extremely helpful to be able to pay someone to listen to you and ask questions. Like Yeah. So, yeah, we we do we do that. We do all of stuff.
Aaron Francis:We have a name. Like, it's again, it's really helpful to name things so that expectations are correct. We have a name called individual pursuits night, and it's like, Hey. Are we gonna do do you wanna do individual pursuits tonight? And sometimes she's like, yeah.
Aaron Francis:I wanna watch gossip girl, and I don't want you to be laughing at it because it's ridiculous. And so it's like, great. You have a thing you wanna do. I have a thing I wanna do. Let's do individual pursuits tonight.
Justin Jackson:Oh, I like that.
Aaron Francis:It's like, no. We're we're not doing individual pursuits. We're gonna, we're gonna watch a show together, and then we're gonna have we're gonna talk or we're gonna do something and, like so it's helpful to name things again.
Justin Jackson:IPN versus CPN, Individual pursuits tonight or couple of pursuit couple of pursuit tonight.
Aaron Francis:Yeah. I'll I'll float that acronym and see how it goes and report back to you.
Justin Jackson:Yo, baby. IPN tonight? IPN.
Aaron Francis:An IPN?
Justin Jackson:I I mean, these things are helpful. This is why I I think podcasting is such a helpful medium because The nuance comes out, and also just like good ideas come out. Like, this idea like, individual pursuit tonight. Maybe I'll Use that. That's
Aaron Francis:Yeah. It's great.
Justin Jackson:That's a great, and there are certain this is the other thing that, I have this belief and, again, I could be wrong, but it motivates a lot of my tweets, blog posts, podcasts thinking. Is I do believe that it's possible to give people a framework that makes their life better. That there are certain practices, There are certain, things you can put in place, like therapy, like you just said, that just objectively, For almost everybody, we'll improve the quality of their life, we'll eliminate unnecessary suffering, and, we'll give you a stronger foundation to build a life. The that foundation, I think, is important in the same way that I believe the foundation of building a business Is you have to have customer demand. Without customer demand as the foundation, meaning there is a market or a category that you're in where there is Momentum.
Justin Jackson:People are seeking and buying a product like yours or seeking and buying something that is equivalent to what you're offering. Without that foundation, you can't build a business. People have to want what you're making. And in the same way, there is pillars of a good life and pillars of a strong foundation that Really make a lot of this stuff, I think maybe this is part of your confidence is that you've got some of these pillars in place. So we talked about Communication with your spouse.
Justin Jackson:We talked about therapy. Are there some other pillars that you can think of? 1 I 1 Is you have a career that is also compatible with you building skills and audience. Like, there's some cross pollination, cross Venn diagram. Is there other things, or do you wanna speak to that a little bit?
Aaron Francis:Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think my role at PlanetScale is an ideal situation for me Because one, it is, it's in the same neighborhood as the, you know, the product slash products that I'm building. Right? It's developer tooling.
Aaron Francis:It's databases. It fits within my My universe of who is Aaron Francis online. Right?
Justin Jackson:Mhmm.
Aaron Francis:So that is not lost on me. I'm I mean, I'm nothing if not Strategic. That was not lost on me when it was like, hey. Do you wanna come, you know, create content for this database company? I'm like, hell, yeah.
Aaron Francis:I do. Yeah. So that is compatible. I think it also is compatible that I don't spend all day writing code.
Justin Jackson:Mhmm.
Aaron Francis:Right? So if I were to spend all day writing code and then Log off and go sit on the couch and then log on and write some more code. I don't know how much that would affect me. I like to think that, like, I could just code forever. I think that would be a little bit harder.
Aaron Francis:And so what I do most of the day, like, Daytime work is, like, researching and writing and making videos about databases. And so then when it comes to be night Time work or, you know, early morning work, it's like, ah, finally, I get to write some code. And so there's a little bit of, like, variation between How I spend my brain juice all day and how I spend it at night or in the early morning, and that's really, really helpful. Right?
Justin Jackson:Yeah. That strategy is Being strategic, I think, is also an underrated being strategic is an underrated strategy.
Aaron Francis:Yes. Yes. I think so. I think, like, Effort effort in every direction uncoordinated is an entire is entirely wasteful. Yeah.
Aaron Francis:Like, we talked about, It's not maximum effort in every vector. Like, I can't do that. I don't think anyone can. It's maximum effort in vectors that are generally pretty aligned and, strategically, the things that I think will take me to where I want to be going. Right?
Aaron Francis:So I'm not gonna put I'm not gonna put maximum effort into something where when I arrive at the end, it's like, well, crap. That's not actually where I wanted to go. And so it's very important to think, like, alright. If these things are true, if my family needs, health insurance, If if I need to make a salary, if I want to make my dreams come true, I wanna spend time with my spouse and kids, alright, let's write all these things down. What do I do with all of those?
Aaron Francis:How can I point as many of those vectors in the same, like, like, general direction as possible instead of, Like, pointing them in opposite directions, which seems really, really hard to do, and I don't know that I would be able to pull that off?
Justin Jackson:Yeah. And and another part of strategy Is an honest assessment of where you actually are at right now.
Aaron Francis:Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:Meaning, If you are taking care of a family member who has health, health problems, that is a that is a real thing in your life that you've got to account for. Meaning, I only have limited resources here. And If this is a real part of my life, then I'm gonna have to consider that. If you are 2 months into, being parents. And if things are going great and you're like, this is great.
Justin Jackson:These kids are sleeping. These kids are you know, we get this. We're actually really good at this where it doesn't stress us out, then that's a good sign. That's an honest assessment of where you're at. If you're 2 months into parenting and you're like, this is way harder than I thought it would be.
Justin Jackson:The wheels are falling off the bus. This is It's more stressful than I ever imagined. That's not a great situation to start a business in. You know? You you gotta be you gotta be armed with yourself And be like, what's really happening right now?
Justin Jackson:This is why, in strategy, they always talk about strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. Well, your strengths and weaknesses are, like, what is honestly going on here at home that we need to consider here? And if the if there are some major, you know, situational things in your life That and and maybe it's just like we we've got too many priorities. We can't pay off the we can't pay off all of our student loan debt And do the all at the same time. And take care of mom and, you know, deal with these health Issues.
Justin Jackson:And you've gotta you've gotta have an honest assessment all of all that. So strategically, you can go, okay. Now let's think about how we're gonna, You know, do this.
Aaron Francis:Yeah. I think what what no. I think what you're talking about there is it's the sacrifice equation running the other direction. So, like, if you're taking care of a sick If you're taking care of a sick spouse or a parent or your aging parents or whatever, you have to decide, like, okay. I'm gonna sacrifice working on my business because I'm gonna take care of my aging parents or my sick spouse or whatever.
Aaron Francis:And, again, you just have to count. Like, You have you have to count the cost. Like, it is more important to me to take care of my aging parents early in the morning and late at night than it is work on my business early in the morning at late or late at night. Right? So I think with everything, like, with everything that You're you're doing so, like, we're both saying the same thing from a different direction.
Aaron Francis:Like, you have to count the cost, and I think What I'm saying, the counter counter narrative, is there are some things that you should sacrifice for almost any reason, and that can be watching 2 or 3 hours of TV at night. And Mhmm. Listen. If if the alternative like, That is if there is something on the other side of the equation for which you want to sacrifice. Right?
Aaron Francis:So if you're looking at, like, If you're looking at your your time and you're saying, I I have 3 hours every night where I don't really do anything, But there's this dream that I want, and it's like, okay. That's easy to me. That is a no brainer to me, and I see I think I see Like, I see too many people saying that, like, they can't, like, they can't change their life because, Like, they don't wanna grind. And I'm like Mhmm. I am gonna change my life whatever it takes.
Aaron Francis:Like, no matter what it takes. But the equation the the equation is flipped if it's like, I'm burned out, and I'm, like, I'm hanging on to the end of a knotted rope, And it's like, I'm about to fall off unless, like, unless I hang on with everything I have, in which case I would say, like, okay. If TV, whatever it is, if, you know, taking long walks at night, if that is more valuable, like, You have to decide you're gonna do that instead of working on your business. You're gonna sacrifice working on your business Because you're barely making it, and that is a, like, that is a valid that those are valid numbers to run. And so I think what we're both saying is, like, You gotta you gotta introspect and decide what are the numbers for you.
Aaron Francis:For me, I I have told you 10 times what the numbers are. I don't know what they are for anybody else. And importantly, the numbers are gonna change for me at some point. They're they're like, I'm in I'm in this era right now. This error is not gonna last forever.
Aaron Francis:I'm gonna run out of energy. The kids are gonna get older. We're gonna have more kids. Something thing will change, and I will have to sit down and redo the math, but many people aren't doing the math. They're just like, man, I wish my life would change.
Aaron Francis:Well, That's too bad. I'm like, no. Yeah. This is it. This is all you got, man.
Justin Jackson:There is another perspective on that, which is To clearly outline what you want, and then to ask yourself, what is the best way to get there? And, I have had people back when I was doing more coaching, they would show up and I would say, what do you want? And they would say, I wanna become an individual influencer like you, Justin. I wanna have an audience. I wanna build a product and launch it.
Justin Jackson:And, You know, I wanna build this up. And I would say, okay. Let's get started then. And and but I said, but that's not an actual reason. What's the actual reason why?
Justin Jackson:What are you Well, right now I'm making $80,000 a year, and my family could really use a 130. Okay. Once we actually got into it, it just became clear that for this person, the the best path to getting to that dream It's just to find a better job. Mhmm. It's something that doesn't get, I think, mentioned enough, which is if if you're in a shitty job, If you're not making enough money and you don't have an audience and you don't you haven't, like, started any of this, It is likely that the best use of your time and energy and focus is just getting a promotion or finding a better job.
Justin Jackson:Those things may give you nothing's ever going to give you a 100% of what you want. You might get 60, 70, 80. Maybe if you're lucky, you get 90% of what you want. So sure. You go to a job.
Justin Jackson:You have one of the downsides to getting a job is you have to ask permission to go on vacation, which I always hated.
Aaron Francis:Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:But It may be in the math, that personal math. It may be better decision for a listener to be thinking, you know what? Actually, if this is what I want, I'm I'm actually avoiding something I'm scared of, which is going out and finding another job. And I'm replacing it with something that is actually way scarier, way harder, has a lower chance of success. I'm gonna try to do that instead.
Justin Jackson:And this is why the stair step approach is such a nice idea of, like, you can stair step your way up to a nice remote job like Aaron has. And then, that's compatible with some of your long term dreams. I mean, that's a best. Those are the best employers. Hey, Aaron.
Justin Jackson:What is your long term dream? Oh, I wanna do this, this, this. Okay. Well, we're compatible here on a long term basis. But I don't want people to think that that's not an option.
Justin Jackson:My guess is that for most folks, it is better for them to find a better job than to try to start a company. Just because I've I've known tons of people who are amazing in all sorts of ways, have tons of skills, tons of it, And they don't make it. Making it in business is it's just it there's no sure thing. And so if you're playing if you're doing that math, I would consider saying, well, the first step if I'm in a shitty job is just to find a better job that gives me more freedom, more autonomy, more money, etcetera.
Aaron Francis:Yeah. If we were, like I I am I think the reason I'm in this situation partially is because I'm extremely risk averse. Right? Like, I'm not gonna quit my job. I'm not gonna, like, I'm not gonna just be like, hey, family.
Aaron Francis:I'm going to do my own thing. Like, I hope that I have enough money next month so that you kids can go to school. Like, I think there is definitely a way to, Like, to work your way up to a position where you can then start to sacrifice other things, but there, again, there are nonnegotiables. Like, I'm I Would love to be able to work on a business full time, but that's just not that's just not in the cards for me. Listen.
Aaron Francis:If we were going negative every month, like, if if PlanetScale wasn't enough for us to live, the the talk of, like, a a side business would probably not be on the table for me. It would be, Erin, you gotta cut your expenses or you gotta get a better job because this is not working.
Justin Jackson:Mhmm.
Aaron Francis:And so, yeah, I definitely don't wanna paint the picture of, like, I'm, you know, sacrificing everything, and I'm this like, I'm throwing the whole team on my back. Like, no. We've got like, we we're not going negative every month, and the things that I'm sacrificing don't really count to anybody except me. And so that's where that's where I'm like, Yeah. If your job sucks and you're going negative every month and or you're going in physically to somewhere that is just, like, beating you down, Get out of there.
Aaron Francis:Like, that is absolutely the best first step.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. This is the the challenge is so many people do get into starting their own business because They things are really not going well. And they're like, I got I gotta fix this. And sometimes that can work out. But I the way I've I've said it before is it's good to be hungry.
Justin Jackson:It's not good to be desperate. In the the hungry desperation scale, desperation is not a good time to be building anything, because you're gonna be in this vicious cycle. And, it's actually great having you on the call today because it's just clear, you seem calm. You seem like you're hungry. But there is a a foundation of calm that if I was gonna review a lot of these cases I'm thinking about From my inbox and from, you know, people I've coached and things, the times where it didn't work out was they were they were in that desperation mode.
Justin Jackson:They were Too close to the metal. They were grinding gears, and, when you're in that kind of spiral, Nothing is going well. All you're doing is putting out fires. You're putting out fires with your spouse. You're putting out fires with the day job.
Justin Jackson:You put so you gotta simplify as much as you can. And if you're in a situation like that, probably the best way for you to improve your life is to try to get a better job. Nice thing about getting a better job Is a lot of the principles, that apply to business also apply to that. You're trying to give people something they want. You're trying to solve the boss' problems.
Justin Jackson:You're trying to, make yourself the most attractive candidate. Mhmm. And these are all things that apply in business. Business is about when you have a product, you're trying to make your product the most attractive candidate for anybody who's looking for a product like that, And you can take some of those principles away with you. We've got an hour.
Justin Jackson:Is there anything else you'd like to say?
Aaron Francis:Thank thanks for thanks for letting me come on and and take the other side. I feel like this was really valuable. Hopefully hopefully for other people as well. I think I would synthesize the whole thing as, like you know, I've told Colleen this, my my business partner, a number of times. Like, the only thing you gotta figure out is what do you want.
Aaron Francis:And, unfortunately, that's the hardest thing in the world to figure out. Like Mhmm. What what do you want? And I think for me in the past couple of years, I think I've started to figure out what I want, and I am not like we just talked about, I'm not extremely comfortable with risk. I'm calm, but, boy, am I Hungry, not because we're running out of money, but because there's some kinda, like, thing inside of me that has to prove to, like, my childhood self and the way that I came up and part of me, like, I am going to make it.
Aaron Francis:And, like, That, like, coupled with I have a job, and my I can provide for my family, so Far seems like infinite energy, and I know that it will run out at some point. Mhmm. But I am not willing I'm not willing to to watch To watch these dreams die because I'm too sleepy or I'm watching TV at night or something. And so, like
Justin Jackson:Yeah.
Aaron Francis:You gotta run the sacrifice equation on your own side and figure out What are you willing to sacrifice and for what are you sacrificing and figure out, like, I don't know, man. Which one's stronger? And then you just run it from there. Don't don't be afraid to commit. Do not be afraid to commit to it.
Justin Jackson:Yes. Yeah. I I mean, we could keep going. I'm sure. But I'm cheering for you.
Justin Jackson:I I -Thanks. -That that hunger you have, and that idea of like, I got this dream, and I just Gotta go after it is so I identify with that so much. And then having that line of I have this dream, But I'm not willing to cross this line is also important. And, we heard I heard that from you too. So Thanks so much, man.
Justin Jackson:This was great. I'm I'm sure folks will have lots of feedback on this. What what's a good way for people to reach out to you or Say, hey. I'm listening right now.
Aaron Francis:Yeah. I'm on Twitter basically all the time even when I shouldn't be at, Aaron d Francis, Aaron with 2 a's, Aaron d Francis. The course that we talked about is at planetscale.com/courses. And then the product that my partner and I are working on is, we are in the middle of a of a pivot because we haven't found product market fit. So that's at hello query dotcom, and we're building a flexible way for nontechnical users to get access to their database.
Aaron Francis:So
Justin Jackson:Hello, Query.
Aaron Francis:Hello, Query. This is as of, like, yesterday, Your day, totally unannounced, so breaking news here first. So
Justin Jackson:I I say query. What did you say? Query. Query.
Aaron Francis:Query.
Justin Jackson:I say query.
Aaron Francis:Interesting.
Justin Jackson:We'll have to
Aaron Francis:talk about this offline. That's the first time I've heard that one. Yeah. So hello query.com, I guess, if you're from Canada.
Justin Jackson:Don't take mine as Canadian pronunciation. That's a a recurring bit on the show as I pronounce things weird. Would also love Here, if you're listening, I would love to hear from spouses. And if you are a spouse of someone bringing building a business, Yeah. It'd be great to have you reach out.
Justin Jackson:You can email me, justin@transistor.afam. I'm on Twitter, the letter m, the letter I. Justin, We have a live chat on Transistor. You can even put comments in there, but, I'm hoping this will be the beginning of, an expanded, nuanced discussion about how to do all of this, while you're being a parent and trying to, live a good life, Family. So thanks again, everybody.
Justin Jackson:And, yeah, hope to hear from you soon.
