We're doing this and it's weird
Hey, everyone. Welcome to Build Your SaaS. This is the behind the scenes story of building a web app in 2021. I'm John Buda, a software engineer.
Helen:And I'm Justin Jackson. I do product and marketing follow along as we continue to build transistor.fm. The have we been doing this since 2018? Like, did we start this show in 2018?
Jon:I don't know. I don't think so. We could Or is this easily find
Helen:Is this, like, is this our 2nd year or our 3rd year? Let's see here.
Jon:Good question. Sure we could if only there was a way we could figure that out. 1st episode is February 16, 2018. Oh, wow. So That's 3 years almost.
Helen:That'll be 3 years? That just does not seem correct.
Jon:No. It doesn't.
Helen:Does it feel to me, it feels shorter. Like, now I'm in the period of time where it just feels like, no. We've only been doing this for a couple years.
Jon:Yeah. It seems shorter.
Helen:The you know, even just thinking back, like, when you launch something new, especially when you're doing it with somebody else, I remember having these feelings of, like, flying to Chicago that that first time. You and I had met before. Like, we had a a friendship before this. But
Jon:Yeah.
Helen:Just and staying at your house and just being like, holy shit. We're doing this, and it's weird. Like, we're navigating this new experience and this new relationship as cofounders and just remember like, that just the weirdness of it. Yeah. Like, was it weird for you too?
Jon:It was yeah. It was weird. I mean, I don't know. I think we both feel comfortable around each other. But Yeah.
Jon:It was so we definitely taking a leap.
Helen:Yeah. Taking yeah. Yeah. The scent Yeah.
Jon:It doesn't it doesn't feel like it was that long ago. No. No. And And and I don't know what I don't I I can't really put my finger on why that is, but it's I I mean, even since you were here in Chicago, we haven't really seen each other that much, like
Helen:Yeah.
Jon:4 or 5 times, maybe.
Helen:Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that plays into it? Like, one one thing I'm jealous of is Ben Orenstein and the 2 people team, they're all in, in Boston. And so they do regular founder retreats and meetups.
Helen:And, overall, I'm I'm pretty excited about building a remote company and getting to live where I wanna live and having the flexibility. But the big downside to that is we don't get to see each other as much.
Jon:Right. That is a bummer. COVID didn't help.
Helen:No. And COVID yeah. COVID really did not help in that in that case at all. Yeah. I mean, that that's interesting because, certainly, in 2021, you can build a company with anyone around the world.
Helen:And there's lots of good things about that. Right? Paul Jarvis and Jack Ellis are on opposite sides of Canada. Trying to think of other teams I know. But, you know, like, it's it's not abnormal now to start a company, a remote company, where, you know, DHH is in Miami and and Jason's in Chicago.
Jon:Right. Yeah. I think that'll be certainly going forward, that's probably gonna be the norm.
Helen:Yeah. The only downside is yeah. You don't you just don't get to share as much, FaceTime, real life FaceTime.
Jon:Yeah. Even, like, outside of the outside of work time.
Helen:Yeah. And that because when we're just hanging out, like, when we're just walking around Portland doing whatever, there's something about that experience that's quite rich and really has nothing to do with business, but does it's like, maybe it's just like like life is holistic. It's not like, we you and I could just hang out in a business context, and that would be enough. Like, getting to enjoy friendships outside of work and getting to enjoy nonwork things.
Jon:Yeah. That was, yeah, that was always a huge part of work for me is getting to know people you work with and building friendships and hanging out outside of work.
Helen:Yeah.
Jon:So Yeah. It is unfortunate that we can't do that.
Helen:You know, what's the answer for people building remote companies? Or what are some ideas? Like, how can how can we deal with this? Because I mean, especially for you. Like, you like, for me, I I was, like, always, like, eager to get out of the office for whatever reason.
Helen:Maybe I just didn't
Jon:Yeah.
Helen:Like, the control or people looking at my monitor or whatever. But for you, like, you really enjoyed that that social connection. Like, that was Mhmm. A key part. So what do you think is the answer for rebuilding some of that?
Helen:Or or
Jon:I don't know. I mean, it's, you know, maybe working out of a coworking space. I mean, you do that now. I don't. But that doesn't help our relationship really.
Helen:But Yeah.
Jon:Yeah. I don't know. It's hard. Part of the success of this is that we haven't had that. I'm like I I don't know.
Jon:I mean, I've worked with friends before, and it didn't really work out.
Helen:Justin, if I got to know you better, this really would not work out. Yeah. I don't think
Jon:that I don't think that would
Helen:be the case. But, like Limited exposure. It's like
Jon:There's still a separation there, which is I don't know. I guess there could be some benefits to that.
Helen:Yeah. No. I I do actually agree. You know, being able to leave the office, and it's like, if you and I had a disagreement about something and it's just very easy. It's like it's not like, I'm gonna see you at the bar later.
Helen:And then it's
Jon:like Right.
Helen:Like, it's like, we get a full, like, 12 hours apart, and then we come back. And, also, sometimes sometimes Slack is terrible for interpersonal relationships, but sometimes it's nice.
Jon:Yeah. Right.
Helen:Because sometimes it's like, you know, you can you're you don't sometimes it's nice to, you know, not have to have the full fidelity. You know?
Jon:Yeah. Yeah. It's like text messaging. I mean, it's hard to context doesn't really come across necessarily.
Helen:And sometimes that's good, and sometimes
Jon:it's bad.
Helen:What what do you think it would take to to get you to move to Canada?
Jon:I I don't know.
Helen:You know what I should do? This would help. This is my this will be my evil plan is I'll I'll buy your parents a really nice retirement place somewhere, like, super fancy. Like, they could not resist it. And then we'll get your parents to move here.
Helen:And then, you know, the There you go. Then the the the the pole will be stronger.
Jon:Yeah. If Sure. He'll try that out.
Helen:If John's parents are listening right now, DM me and just send me some pictures from Zillow. Send me your dream home. It has to be in Canada though.
Jon:Next to a next to a trout fishing river.
Helen:Oh, well, okay. Stream. Trout fishing. Now that I know now that I know the the, you know, the appropriate hooks here, I I mean, I I think we can and, I mean, they're in Michigan. Right?
Helen:That's that's practically Canada.
Jon:It's basically I mean, they grew up in pretty much Canada.
Helen:Okay. Alright. So, you know, maybe a nice place in cottage country up in Ontario. Yeah. Okay.
Helen:Alright. Well
Jon:Yeah. Let's
Helen:work on that. Let's work on that.
Jon:Alright.
Helen:I I think I mean, I think air air flights are still open. But,
Jon:Yeah. I've I I have no idea.
Helen:And, honestly, one one huge benefit is, now that Trump is out of office, I I just did not wanna go to the states. Like, it just I it I get it. It didn't feel good. And I was always worried about, like, I was not a Trump fan, and I was, you know, often critical of him on social media. And I just didn't want, like, be going through TSA and have someone looking through my phone and then go, oh, well, we're gonna bring you to the side room and, put on the rubber gloves or whatever.
Jon:Pledge your allegiance to Trump.
Helen:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're gonna we're gonna make you squeal, son. And I already know how I act under under pressure.
Helen:I crack pretty quick. Have I this is a side this is a side story. But have I ever told you the story of, of getting confronted with a burglar at my snowboard shop?
Jon:I don't know.
Helen:Okay. So this is my early twenties. And it's just you know, this is a scenario that I actually fantasized about a lot. Like, oh, what if someone breaks in while I'm at the shop? You know?
Helen:And in my mind, you know, I take control. I'm like I I have my voice gets deeper. I'm like, hey. Hey. What do you think you're doing here?
Helen:And I I look really, you know, intimidating. So one night, I'm working late. It's probably, like, midnight or something. And everything's dark. I was doing some paperwork in the basement.
Helen:And the basement of the shop was really creepy. It was like an old building. So I'm down in the basement doing all this paperwork, finish everything. And I have this big box of files, like massive, that I have to take home. Yeah.
Helen:And so I walk up the stairs, and then I, I kind of push the front door open to get out. And standing there is a a big figure with a, a crowbar, like, up up to, like, hit me. And, you know, after all that fantasizing about what I would do in that case, what ended up happening was me just going, this is the sound I made.
Jon:Oh.
Helen:No. Like, hey. What do you think you're doing? No. Like, me throwing the box aside and, you know, punching him in the face.
Jon:Put it putting your fists up.
Helen:No. It was just, oh, and and just crumbling on the ground. Like, I was just I I went into the fetal position.
Jon:Yeah. And That's probably a normal reaction.
Helen:And, it turned out, you know, in skateboarding and snowboarding, you you deal with some pretty pretty, out there characters. And this guy, Mike, was on our team. Like, he was a sponsored skateboarder, but he was definitely a little bit wild. Like, he was a little bit, you know, kind of a wild guy. And he had driven by the shop, and we'd been broken into a couple times.
Helen:And he saw the light on, and he thought someone was breaking in. Apparently, he just carries a crowbar in the back of his car for these
Jon:Oh.
Helen:So he he thought he was apprehending an intruder. Nice. That's that's like you know, maybe later we could talk about the some of the challenges we're having right now with,
Jon:customers.
Helen:But at the very least, we're probably not gonna have to deal with somebody attacking us with a crowbar.
Jon:I don't think I guess that's a benefit of not having a physical office. Storefront. Yeah.
Helen:I just I love that because we always play the tape in our head of, like, oh, yeah. This is what I do. I do like you know, you've always got aviators on and, like, fire going on behind you. Not reality. Yeah.
Helen:I I'm I'm looking forward to being able to fly there again. The border's opening up. And, Yeah.
Jon:Well, I haven't been there at all yet, so I gotta
Helen:Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I I mean, you still can, John. That as far as I know, you can still fly over.
Helen:You it would you'd have to quarantine for a bit. But
Jon:That's true. So
Helen:I've been spending a lot of time on Clubhouse
Jon:Uh-huh.
Helen:And, the social audio app. And, I was I was telling you, it it's interesting when when these kinds of apps are nascent. I think it can sometimes be worth to invest a little time and be early just because a lot of the gains you might get are come from being an early adopter. So, you know, the the first bloggers, maybe weren't the best bloggers, like Kotke and Merlin Mann and all the all those people. They really built a lot of their platform by being some of the earliest bloggers.
Helen:Right.
Jon:Yeah. They they built a huge audience because there was kinda nowhere else to go.
Helen:Yeah. Exactly. And do we really think that Joe Rogan is the best podcaster ever, or was he just early?
Jon:I don't know. Has he been has he been around for
Helen:that long? Around for quite a while. I I mean, nothing again. Joe Rogan, whatever. But I'm just saying being early can help a lot.
Helen:And, you know, a lot of the folks who join Twitter early, you end up getting recommended. You end up getting you know, there's all these kind of feedback loops that help. And a lot of building traction, both, you know, in your career, building a following, building your network, building traction for your startup, is taking advantage of these arbitrage opportunities when things are ascendant. So there was a lot of SaaS companies that, let's say, 10, 20 years ago, built their business on really cheap AdWords. So that window was open, and people were like, oh, I'm gonna every every 10¢ I put in, I get $5 back.
Helen:Like, this is I can do this forever. And Mhmm. So and it's worth taking advantage of those opportunities when those windows are open because now, AdWords are really expensive and far less effective. So, yeah, I've been spending some time. I was I was telling you last night, I was in this roundtable with all these folks, like, Justin Konstien, who's one of the, he was with TechCrunch for a long time.
Helen:A bunch of VCs. You know, just a bunch of folks in the in, you know, in tech and start ups, but also who are interested in podcasting. And we were talking about Apple building the, their new podcasting, maybe, like, paid subscription platform that people think they're building.
Jon:Right.
Helen:And, I got invited on stage and, you know, got to say a few things. It was interesting how many people were listening. I got a bunch of DMs after from, you know, folks like Steve Wilson and, former head of partnerships at Apple and say, hey. I heard you on the stage. So all this to say, it's interesting.
Helen:It's ruining it's ruining my my home life a little bit because, you
Jon:know spending too much time talking on the Internet?
Helen:It's like it's like I'm in a conference call that just never ends. Yeah. Which is one reason I think these apps have a limited shelf life because So
Jon:is it is it has it proven beneficial? I mean Yeah. Are you getting something out of it? Is it a thing for, is it marketing for Transistor? Or is it Yeah.
Helen:I mean, I think, right now, again, while this window is open, I'm learning a lot. I'm able to do a lot of customer research because there's, like every day, there's, like, 5 podcasting rooms where people are coming on and asking questions, sharing in an unprompted way what they're struggling with. There's certain questions that just come up over and over and over again. And, the only, like, people can view your profile, and they often will, especially if you get on stage. And the only options there are to follow you on Twitter or Instagram.
Helen:And I'm just getting tons of, followers on both from from Clubhouse and able to follow-up with conversations. And so we have we've gotten some customers out of it. But I think for as a research tool, it's interesting. And I think as a networking tool, it's interesting. It's it's less audio entertainment and more like networking.
Helen:It feels like going to a meetup. So if you and I went to a meetup in San Francisco and, you know, like, there's a bunch of VCs and a bunch of people from Apple and a bunch of people from Amazon, and they're all there, like, interested in podcasting.
Jon:Yeah.
Helen:And we got to meet
Jon:I suppose yeah.
Helen:It would be like that.
Jon:I suppose part of it part of its popularity too is just everyone's stuck at home. Can't do those meetups. Can't go to conferences.
Helen:Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of people have, described it as the, it's like the the hallway track in, at a conference. So and for someone like me, like, that gets fired up with about that kind of stuff, like, I love it. Like, I could it's like oxygen for me.
Helen:I've been I didn't realize how deprived I was of this kind of this kind of interaction.
Jon:Yeah.
Helen:So, yeah, I've been finding it helpful. Also, I think picking up themes, you know, especially venture capitalists. I don't I it's it's surprising to me how off I think they are in their estimations, especially of the the podcast industry. Like, folks are like, people were so bullish on this Apple move, like, thinking that they're gonna, you know, go into paid podcast subscriptions. And I'm like, like, the entire podcasting advertising market is $1,000,000,000.
Helen:And how like, if we were gonna guess, the entire paid podcast subscription market, Luminary, Sam Harris, Supercast, everybody, I mean, I would be surprised if we're at, I don't know, even, like, a 100,000,000 would be that would be surprising. But for a company like Apple like, what was Apple's Apple's annual revenue? Like, this is this is not a big enough business. Their annual revenue is 274,000,000,000. So even if they were able to build something that created more value than all podcast advertising combined at a 1000000000, That so let's say they double it.
Helen:They get 2,000,000,000. Is 2,000,000,000 worth it for them? I don't think so. I it's and it's just
Jon:Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Who knows what? It's probably a bundled whoever I don't know.
Jon:Who knows what it's gonna be? Some bundled app that's part of their Apple one subscription that it just keeps people in their ecosystem. Yeah. I mean, it's that's the ultimate yeah. They have it.
Jon:The services are huge for them, but they still make most of their money on hardware.
Helen:Yeah. And I I also think that there's a misalignment. Like, if this is the case, like, strategically, if this is what they're thinking, it's misaligned because it's not a big enough magnet to attract people and keep people in their ecosystem. So, like, this is what I think we've mentioned this last week with Spotify. You know, analysts are looking at Spotify's investment into podcasting.
Helen:$500,000,000. And they're saying there's no more premium subscribers than you had before you started this experiment, and there's no more app users than when you before you started this experiment. Yeah. John, $500,000,000 invested in this experiment. You you you you start to question me when I spend a $100 on Reddit ads.
Jon:I do. How are those working out?
Helen:Let me check the campaign. So far, no conversions. But you never know.
Jon:Yeah. I don't I don't know where I don't know where all that said it. I mean, I could who knows what they're gonna do? If it if it's something like you can add your podcast to Apple and sell it like an app Mhmm. Then there's probably something there, but who knows?
Helen:Yeah. And, again but the like, why would Apple get into that business if, like, let's say they attract, I don't know, 10,000 subscriber 10,000 subscribers, which would be I mean, that would 10,000 subscribers given that the entire podcast ecosystem is just over a 1000000 shows. You know, like, how how much of that market could they convince to switch? You know? It's not like software developers or app developers where there's millions and millions of software developers who are highly incentivized to get into the iOS app ecosystem.
Helen:Podcasting is just different. It's small. It's pretty small. And sometimes puzzled by the the amount of, like, kind of inflate inflated valuations, folks are getting in here.
Jon:Right. Yeah. Well, if anything, I mean, you spending time in there is probably good for for us kind of getting ahead of what's next or what to work on next or I mean, things will change. No doubt. So we'll have to do something different at some point.
Helen:No. If if people have if their target market is using Clubhouse, I highly recommend it because you can just go into a room and listen. And you basically, like, for us, I get to listen to our target customers all day long talk about their struggles, talk about what they like, talk about what's motivating them to get into podcasting. And those are real key insights when you're thinking about how to develop a product, how to switch your marketing. And, also, for me, it's just, you know, when I'm in my office by myself all day or even just talking to you, like, this gives me all these new inputs that can ignite, a little bit of passion in my day and get me fired up to, like, pursue something or, you know, talk to you about building something new.
Helen:Right?
Jon:Right.
Helen:So yeah. I I think, it's been a worthwhile experiment so far, but I do see a limit on this because
Jon:Yeah.
Helen:People are hanging out
Jon:Don't let it consume your life.
Helen:People are hanging out in these rooms for 8 hours. Because sometimes to get them going, you just have to be there a long time. And so the the level of time commitment that's required honestly, I think it's gonna create a lot more podcasters because they're gonna be like, well, I like speaking and having audio, but spending 8 hours a day on this platform is killing me.
Jon:Yeah.
Helen:Why don't we so one of the the folks on this call today that I did, this this Clubhouse room, I did a SaaS room. He was a listener, Azzur. He was saying, you know what? He's been missing the show, missing having us talk on a regular basis. And he's like, you know, you I and I said, well, I don't know.
Helen:Maybe our narrative arc is kinda coming to a close. Like, we're just we did the thing. We built the SaaS. And he's like, yeah. But what about your struggles now?
Helen:Like, what are you try you know, how do you scale a SaaS? How do you grow your revenue and your team and all this stuff? And I thought it was interesting because, I don't know how you feel about this, but I I just at this point in time, I actually don't have a bunch more aspirations other than I just want to grow slowly and organically. Like, I still want us to grow. I I think slow steady growth has been really nice.
Jon:Yeah.
Helen:And, you know, the the financially, having the freedom to do the things I wanna do in my life, pay off debts, all that stuff has been amazing. But, yeah, it made me think about how, like, your aspirations really follow your values, like, what you value. And it it really seems like, we've aligned around a few things. And, yeah, I'm curious to what to hear what you think. We we touch on this every once in a while.
Helen:But
Jon:Yeah. We do, kind of where we wanna end up and what we're doing this for.
Helen:Yeah. Like, is and maybe, I mean, maybe this is a good time to bring it up again. Like, if you're kind of consistently feeling like, you know, I'd like to work with some people again, Maybe that's a a sign that maybe we should think about hiring. Although every time I ask you about hiring, you're you're
Jon:Yeah. I don't know if I'm at that point yet. I mean, I think there's other ways to kinda work with other people. But, no. I mean, I think for me, it's I enjoy the building part.
Helen:Mhmm.
Jon:Right? I enjoy the process of creation Yeah. Of a thing that helps people. I would I I I think most I mean, you know, most founders probably align with that. Yeah.
Jon:I mean, you enjoy building the thing. You are you know, maybe you feel good about what you're doing and how it's helping people or helping the world. Or
Helen:Mhmm.
Jon:I mean, obviously, part of it is part of it is the financial aspect and being able to support a life that you want.
Helen:For me, anyway and, again, these things can change. And I'm not saying like, I certainly hope that you and I individually are just, like I hope we never get, like, just stagnant. Like, we wanna continue to aspire for other to other things. But there's just some things I really value right now. Simplicity overgrowth, and that means, like, small teams.
Helen:That means keeping the product as simple as we can. That means, you know, reducing complexity whenever we can. We I had someone on Twitter today say, hey. Is there any way you can take payment over PayPal or direct debit? And I said, like, PayPal just thinking about that alone, PayPal would add so much complexity to our business.
Jon:Yeah. It might be easier than it used to be, but, like, integrating with their API was never super fun. And the amount, yeah, the amount of work that would take for the handful of people that have requested it is just I don't it would it's not gonna be something released that's, like, all of a sudden a flood of people sign up. Plus, yeah, it would add on, just another level of complexity.
Helen:And even being in this Clubhouse room today, there's a lot of enterprise SaaS people. And, John, talk about coming from different planets, like bootstrap SaaS and enterprise SaaS. There was a running bet where they would use an acronym, and I would be like, hold up. I gotta look that up. You know, everyone take a drink.
Helen:I have no idea what this acronym means. And the, you know, the the challenges they're having at their level, like, they're like, okay. We wanna we wanna scale to $20,000,000 in ARR. And I said, okay. You know, and and I'm maybe they're at, like, I don't know, 8,000,000 or something.
Helen:But they have, like, 25 to 50 people already. And I'm just just listening, and that fires some people up. Like, some people just love that. But I hear that, like and all I see is, like, having to manage those teams and manage those people and hire and have more complex Yeah. Processes.
Helen:And it it just doesn't seem like a good life.
Jon:And on the if we set out to build some massive, whatever, $1,000,000,000 company, we would have done that, but it would have been an entirely different lifestyle. It was
Helen:Yeah.
Jon:I mean
Helen:And then we couldn't make fun of those people anymore.
Jon:Yeah. But, like, if if where we wanted to end up was selling our company or going public, then, like, that's just that's your focus, and it's entirely different than what we're focusing on. Yes. I think.
Helen:And, honestly, I I don't think our credit our criticisms of those businesses are unwarranted. To me, investing $500,000,000 in in, an ecosystem and substantially changing it, you know, maybe for the worse, and not having anything to show for it is a colossal waste of resources just for society. And the the willingness for and maybe I just I know. And, you know, I'm hearing Lanzmann right now. He's he's probably thinking, oh, Justin, you're so naive.
Helen:You know, it's like Jason Calacanis when I did that interview with him. He's like he he was so, dismissive of me. You know? Just like, you don't understand. There's so much money in the world.
Helen:Like, money wants to be gambled. And but to me, it just seems like a colossal waste. If it takes you $500,000,000 and in a sequence of bets in order to get to that bet that's gonna get you the 1,000 x growth, like, is that really the best use of society's resources? Is a bunch of, you know, rich dudes spending money trying to 1,000 x their money. It just seems like a waste.
Helen:And I would way I get way more fired up about the whatever it is. The 1,000,000 or 2,000,000 plus bootstrappers, solo founders or co founders, small company people who just wanna have a good life, I get way more fired up about them, getting a chance than Bezos risking whatever it is, a 100,000,000 on a bet that might not pay out and then just writing it off as like, well, guess we're that's you know, that'll be my one investment that didn't work, but maybe the next one will. Just seems like a waste. Like, if you really wanted to do societal good, then just invest in more bootstrap startups
Jon:Right.
Helen:Or indie startups or have a
Jon:Give your give your employees a raise.
Helen:Oh, yeah. And then, yeah, give give your employees a raise. The indie makers, the indie creators, the indie entrepreneurs, the freelancers, the, you know, the small agency owners, the small software company owners, the solo devs working in their basement trying to build a better life for themselves. That's I think that's where I I get excited. And there's always gonna be a place for bigger companies.
Helen:But, at this point in history, talk about windows opening and closing. The window is open for where independence actually still have some leverage. Mhmm. Honestly, again, I I've mentioned this a few times, but if I was Apple or I was Amazon or I mean, Twitter just did this. They they just, bought out the breaker team.
Helen:Didn't acquire the app. Just, you know, just hired the people. That's a good move
Jon:because Yeah.
Helen:These people building these indie companies are are effective at a scale like, talk about 1,000 x returns. Bootstrapped founders get 1,000 x returns. They they create so much value. They are they, are so efficient, so effective at a scale. Like, every time I run up somebody run run up against somebody in a bigger company, I'm just like, how do you how do you folks even go to work every day?
Helen:It's so slow. It's so ineffective.
Jon:I yeah. Hopefully, the breaker team is allowed to, like, kinda work on their own to some degree and not be caught up in the whole Twitter, like, bureaucracy.
Helen:I mean, we have we have there are I I I don't really wanna say any names, but, you know, there's a major, $1,000,000,000,000 company that just got into podcasting. And I'm like, what are you doing? Like, your implementation is I just do not understand. Is is there is there so much are you in are you so stuck? Is there is there so many so many things gumming up the like, how do you move?
Helen:And when I talk to people who work for these companies, that's their biggest complaint. It's just like, yeah. I can't move fast.
Jon:That would be frustrating. Yeah.
Helen:Like, on a bad year as, like, our principal software developer, you you out execute like, we are able to execute at a level that just seems so far ahead of some of these other people.
Jon:Yeah. It would be I've never really worked for a company like that.
Helen:Yeah. What's that what's the biggest company you've worked for again?
Jon:I did an internship in college for Motorola, but that was
Helen:Oh, yeah.
Jon:That I got I got a glimpse of that world, and I was like, nah. I'm gonna send that. I the biggest company I've been in is probably, like, 35 people or something, maybe.
Helen:Yeah. Yeah. Me too. About about that. Yeah.
Helen:35, 40 people. Well, if you're in that world right now and you wanna get out, I just wanna say, I do think now is a good time. Even I'm not saying bootstrapping is easy. I'm not saying starting a SaaS company is easy. It's really hard.
Helen:But the the window is open right now. 2 person teams can execute at a really high level. And I actually disagree with Spencer Fry. He he says he he has a lot of bad experiences with bootstrap companies. Like, the product's not great or the customer service isn't great.
Helen:My experience is that the you get better customer support. And, sure, you gotta pick and choose. Not every Bootstrap founder is a great product person, but a lot of the software I use is really well done
Jon:Mhmm.
Helen:Especially considering the resources. I I I just signed up for Savvy Cow, Derek Reimer's new thing. It is so good. Like, he is a software craftsperson. We use Tuple.
Helen:Tuple is excellent. It's got problems.
Jon:Yeah.
Helen:But you compare it to, like, Zoom, which has whatever, 1,000,000,000 of dollars in in market cap and and, tons of resources. This small little team that's under 10 people is able to execute at this really high level. I'm I'm bullish on small software teams, on really good product people that, honestly, alone or with a partner or with a team of 10 people can can execute at a level that is just that seriously competes with companies that have a 100 or a 1000 people.
Jon:Yep. I agree with that.
Helen:So take take the moment, Indes. I I believe in you. You know, I was gonna I was gonna say we should talk about this last thing, but let's let's just end on that. Any anything else you wanna chat about?
Jon:Not really. No it's a good it's a good end to
Helen:that well let's let's give a shout out to our indie friends on patreon
Jon:yeah Yeah. Thanks, everyone. Thanks, everyone, as always, on Patreon. We have the Take It EV podcast, Ethan Gunderson, Diogo, Chris Willow, Mason Hensley, Borja Solaire, Ward Sandler, Eric Lima, James Sours, Travis Fisher, Matt Buckley, Russell Brown, Evandro Sassy, Pradey Yumna Schenbecker, Noah Praill, Robert Simplicio, Colin Gray, Josh Smith, Ivan Kerkovic, Shane Smith, Austin Loveless, Simon Bennett, Michael Sitfer, Paul Jarvis, and Jack Ellis, Dan Buddha, my brother, Darby Frey, Samori Augusto, Dave Young, Brad from Canada, Sammy Schubert, Mike Walker, Adam Devander, Dave Schubert.
Helen:We got we we gotta get we gotta hold on. We gotta get Junta back on on the show. We gotta see how he's doing.
Jon:Yeah. Yeah. It's been a while. I don't know what's in up what's up with the, the food kit business.
Helen:Junta, if you're out there listening, you know, reach out. Have your people contact our people. Let's let's, let's have another chat.
Jon:And, finally, Kyle Fox from get rewardful.com.
Helen:Thanks, everyone. We'll see you next week.
