Hey, everyone. Welcome to build your SaaS. This is the behind the scenes story of building a web in 2023. I'm Jon Buda, a software engineer.
Justin Jackson:And I'm Justin Jackson. I do product and marketing. And today we have a guest.
Marcella Chamorro:Marcela Chamorro. Here you go.
Justin Jackson:Nice. Marcela, you and I have known each other from the internet for a while. And, and John also knows you as well. And, you used to be in startup marketing. Actually, I'm trying to think of how I first because you have a podcast you've had a few podcasts on Transistor.
Marcella Chamorro:Yes. How
Justin Jackson:did we originally connect? Is that
Marcella Chamorro:I have no idea.
Justin Jackson:You can't remember.
Marcella Chamorro:This is a common question I get. Like, I've known you on the interwebs for so long. Where did how far back?
Justin Jackson:Yeah. Where did it happen?
Marcella Chamorro:When you had marketing, for developers Mhmm.
Jon Buda:Was that
Marcella Chamorro:what it was called? I was already, like, reading all of your blogs and stuff like that. You pre this is a website Oh, wow. Like, all that stuff. Oh, cool.
Marcella Chamorro:I go way back
Jon Buda:Yeah.
Marcella Chamorro:With your content, but I don't recall when I first, got introduced to your content. And then, yes, I Started podcasting, was blogging for a long time, always around, like, personal growth and development. And from an operational standpoint, it was always in marketing. But, personal growth was always my thing. My podcasts were hosted on Transistor
Jon Buda:Mhmm.
Marcella Chamorro:And about Writing the ups and downs of the entrepreneurial and creative journey. And then through that podcast, I interview you on that podcast.
Justin Jackson:Yes.
Marcella Chamorro:Had Some other big names like James Clear, which everybody's like, how'd you get James Clear on your podcast?
Justin Jackson:How did you get
Marcella Chamorro:James Clear? Idea, but I bugged him in his inbox until he said yes. And at some point, he was like, you are so persistent that okay. And I was like, great. Let's do this.
Marcella Chamorro:I will say, though, that that was most likely the most difficult interview I did because He's so media trained, or at least it seemed to me. Yeah. It was hard to get, like, real. With you, I could get, like, real.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. Yeah. I've hung out with him in in person. He's like that in person as well. He's he's very put together.
Justin Jackson:Yeah.
Marcella Chamorro:So maybe it's not media training. Maybe it's just this just just who he is. Yeah. And it was it was great podcasting. I met a lot of very cool people through the podcast, And one of them eventually offered me a full time role just, through being friends on the interwebs just like me and you.
Marcella Chamorro:AD Pinar and I worked at COGSIE in marketing for for about a year. I was the 1st marketing hire there, head of marketing. It was a great time, But always the the mental health and personal development side of me, which just kept growing and growing, And I ended up migrating over to becoming a mindset coach, which is what I do now.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. So maybe let's Start there. Let's describe that transition. So you're you're doing this this coaching. How would you, describe the work you're doing To other people, how do you how do you define it?
Marcella Chamorro:I want to be working with founders and What I would describe as, like, rising stars within teams. Because when I was at COGSI and other startups, like, identified these, They were not founders. They were not heads of functions, but they were key team members who were just hungry and needing wanting challenges, but also needing support. Like, nobody wants to swim in the deep end without knowing how to swim. Like, you know what I mean?
Marcella Chamorro:Like, you really want to grow, but you need adequate support. And so that's the kind of person that I'm really excited about working with. And what I do with that kind of, profile is mindset work. So there's a lot of limiting beliefs that are behind a lot of the challenges that we face, not just at work, But, in our personal lives and so I've been trained in NLP, which is neurolinguistic programming and inter family systems, kind of a dig, Which is really fun for me. Like, I used to hate being in meetings.
Marcella Chamorro:Like, when I'd see my calendar full of meetings coming from COGSY, which is mostly or default async. Yeah. We never had meetings. And now my calendar is packed, and I love it. Like, because they're transformative conversations.
Marcella Chamorro:Do you know what I mean? Like, every session that I have, I end the call and I just feel more energy than I did at the beginning.
Justin Jackson:That's great.
Marcella Chamorro:So, yeah, it's it's it's a lot of fun for me. I think it's something that I have been doing without knowing that I was doing it for years, Just informally.
Justin Jackson:So Did you have some experiences, like, during your work when you were, you know, interacting with founders and then Observing these rising stars, like, were there some insights that you were gathering as you're working that you're like, you know what? There's something here that Oh, for sure. Could you support? What are what are some of those big issues? Let's start with well, why don't we start with the rising stars?
Justin Jackson:What are some of the the big issues you saw there that you're like, I think I could help with that piece.
Marcella Chamorro:Yeah. I think with my own team, and I always say, like, once my team, always my team. I have stay in close contact Everybody I've I've ever worked with because what I really try to do with my teams is to find a win win. Like, how can Where do you want your career to go and and your life to go? And then how can we find that intersection with whatever organization we're working with?
Marcella Chamorro:Because if there's no win win, one one side is winning more than the other. Do you know what I mean? And and that's not how you Feel your best and do your best work, you know. So I work with my own team members to find that intersection. And The feedback that I got was, like, exuberantly positive.
Marcella Chamorro:Like, they were so happy to work with me and so happy that I was Interested in their own their development side by side, like, with the organization's meeting its goals. And I don't I mean, that can sometimes be difficult to find that win win, but it's not impossible. And it's most likely easier than most people think. And and I think that drives a lot of motivation Yeah. For those rising stars who are hungry.
Marcella Chamorro:And also just providing, like, mentorship and that support. A lot of times people just wanna be heard. Yeah. And even better if you're being heard by somebody who's been there, who's walked the path, Right? That you want to eventually work on.
Justin Jackson:Yeah.
Marcella Chamorro:It's like, for example, one of the things that I I did with everybody that I worked with is, Like, find me a job description of your ideal future role. Like, whether that's if Your content manager is that head of content or whatever. Let's find me 3, and then, like, let's put together your ideal one. And then finding people who are in those roles, and let's analyze their LinkedIns. Like, what was their trajectory?
Marcella Chamorro:What did they work how did they work toward that?
Jon Buda:Mhmm.
Marcella Chamorro:And then how do we get you there? And so, I was doing that just as part of being a manager, but at the same time, like, that really leads to deep connections with your team because they know that you're looking out for them.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. You
Marcella Chamorro:know? So there's that. And then I think just the the I think this is a common belief that everything comes from the top. Mhmm. You know?
Marcella Chamorro:And I think that working in in small teams, like in early stage teams, You really do get a sense for how everything does come from leadership, you know, the good, the bad, the ugly. And I was lucky enough in this role that I've mentioned to have a very to experience a lovely work culture, like, Something so positive where maybe in past roles, I've experienced what not to do. And in this role, I experienced a lot of what to do. What is can really breed a and cultivate a tight knit work culture where people are empowered to bring their true selves to work, to work in a calm cadence and to be kind to each other without ignoring, Like, the organization's goals. So what I realized in with that is that it is such a blessing to have that experience.
Marcella Chamorro:Not just, like, for my work life, but for everybody. In this this team, we were, like, 19 people. That's a blessing for those 19 humans And their families and their friends and everybody who's experiencing someone who's showing up in the world, being able to do their best work, but also feel their best. Like, that ripple effect
Jon Buda:Mhmm.
Marcella Chamorro:Was very profound Yeah. For me. And so I just wanted to do more of that. How do we transform more cultures and more leaders in order to have that ripple effect. So I I get a lot of energy from getting to that root cause, which is usually at the top if there are challenges, And then trying to spread that positive vibe out to The rest of the team.
Marcella Chamorro:Yeah. I think a lot of founders do receive a lot of support. Like, you hear founder coaches, founder coaches, like, you hear that a lot. What about everybody else? Like, what about my rising stars, and what about the people who wanna be rising stars?
Marcella Chamorro:And they don't get that much support. So I feel, really strongly about that.
Jon Buda:You you mentioned you're working with teams or you were working with teams. Are you are you, like, diffusing situations between employees, Is, or are there tensions you're navigating or is it more on on an individual level that you're working with?
Marcella Chamorro:I think it's more on individual level. I will work with there's always tensions. I mean, humans, like, that I think that's why human resources Exists like humans will be humans. We're we're all very so very different. And a lot of the times, there's a big Shift that happens between receiving feedback, let's say, for one example, and taking it personally Mhmm.
Marcella Chamorro:Versus reframing it as guidance and thinking, like, I'm gonna keep that idea in my back pocket. Like, when you show up at work One way or the other, the outcome is so very different for the rest of your team. You know? So, yes, a lot of diffusing tension, But once you diffuse attention one time, I think you're you're building the muscle to then, in the future, encounter situations that may be similar where you are able to show up in a more positive way.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. I there's a lot to dig into you there. And it it's interesting because I think for John and I, we've we've we've each experienced what it's like to be on a team and to be, you know, working as an employee And, like, often really showing up, in a Maybe in a rising star kinda way of, like, oh, yeah.
Marcella Chamorro:I got it. Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:I wanna do this. I wanna bring this. And then, sometimes feeling the resistance from the rest of the team or from the, the leadership or whatever. I remember I was on this one team. I've been in nonprofits forever and, like, nonprofit people work crazy hard.
Justin Jackson:And I started working at the software company. And my colleague pulled me over there. And I thought I was just, like, Not working enough. You know, I'm in the deep end. This is my first software job.
Justin Jackson:And my colleague pulled me aside one day. He's like, Dude, you've got to stop working so hard. You are making us look bad. Like, you're just doing too much. Just slow it down.
Justin Jackson:John and I talked about this a lot in the early stages of Transistor of, like, you know, a lot of what we've brought to Transistor for ourselves and for our employees Relates to struggles we've we had. Frustrations we had. On the flip side, now that We're owners. And I I've actually I've had a bunch of conversations with other I've got quite a few founder friends. And It seems like there's this, you know, the first part is really hard building a company.
Justin Jackson:You know, you're building it. It's a struggle, struggle, struggle. Lots of mental health struggles in that time because everything is there's so little margin. You don't know if it you're gonna make it. You're working evenings and weekends.
Justin Jackson:You've got no money. And then when you make it, there's this kind of beautiful honeymoon where you've you've made it and it's like, okay, we've got Now we've got the resources and now we can start to live the life we want. And invariably, all my, all my friends that have started companies eventually Get to this point where they get more frazzled. It's not as fun anymore. And it's just because there's just Once you hit a certain size, there's, like, all the stuff you gotta care about.
Justin Jackson:Tax compliance, income tax, regulations, insurance, Negotiations, legal issues, you know, team issues. And there's just all of these gauges demanding our attention. John and I had a call yesterday. We're talking about this. Like, man, like, we've just been feeling more frazzled lately.
Justin Jackson:It's like It's like everything in our inbox is just this other either a gauge we have to watch or an, this, like, process that has to now be running in our brain.
Jon Buda:Yeah. Someone asking something of us and
Justin Jackson:Yeah. Yeah.
Jon Buda:I think the bigger we got and we're not big by any means, but it's just there's more and more there are more and more, like, tasks and things to do that They're just kinda running in your brain that are
Marcella Chamorro:They're not writing code and marketing.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. And it and it and it's not like and there's the Again, the other common, thing I hear from my friends who are founders are, like, you know, there's this the work That they wanna do, like, the work that they find fun. They wanted to build this company so that they could create a job that was fun for them. But often, the other stuff can crowd in and and, sometimes even, like, make you forget. I had one friend who has this amazingly, like, successful company, and He was thinking about quitting because he he was just like, I don't wanna do this anymore.
Justin Jackson:It's not fun. It's like not only is it not fun, it's like I, Don't wanna go to work anymore. You know? Like, I don't wanna show up. Do you have any insights on any of that?
Justin Jackson:How can on the founder side, What are some things and I think one thing that is hard for founders is, I mean, maybe John and I haven't got enough coaching. But One thing that is hard on on founders is that, often the owner, like, the big boss doesn't get any empathy. It's like, well, you got the company. You guys are doing well. You know?
Justin Jackson:Why are you complaining? And so we often end up talking to each other Going, man, this is like all this pressure and responsibility and stuff is a lot. How can founders deal with all that? Do you do you have any insights on it?
Jon Buda:No. And yeah. And we don't we obviously don't want that, like, Negativity, if you wanna call it that, to, like, trickle down to the team. Mhmm. It's where the team's like, oh, man.
Jon Buda:John and Justin are falling apart. And we're I mean, we're not, but, you know, don't wanna get it to that point.
Justin Jackson:Yeah.
Marcella Chamorro:Yeah. You you do have to Create some sort of buffer. Right? And and I think that's something well, first, I just wanted to say I do hear that a lot. Like, I recently spoke to a founder who said to me, like, But what about me?
Marcella Chamorro:Mhmm. Nobody supports me. Yeah. And I I get that. And like I said, a lot of Times people just want to feel heard.
Marcella Chamorro:Mhmm. But what I will say about Being that buffer and creating a buffer between you and the team or you and each it's you don't want to Pass along stress
Jon Buda:Mhmm.
Marcella Chamorro:To other people. And I think in we talk a lot about hard skills and soft skills and stuff like that, but nobody talks about, like, this The ability to self regulate
Jon Buda:Mhmm.
Marcella Chamorro:And to be able to chill the f out Mhmm. Before you answer the Slack message.
Jon Buda:Mhmm.
Marcella Chamorro:You know? And I think that coming from a place like, my previous role, I because I feel like I've mentioned the word COGZY, like, 500 times in this Chat already, but, like, in my previous role, that stuff didn't happen. But then but now that I'm exposed to more people, and I did have a short stint at another company before deciding to become a coach. I realized that it is a lot more common than I thought that People are exposed to very toxic, behaviors at work. And so I was kind of in a bubble.
Marcella Chamorro:And it sounds to me, like, for everything that I know of you 2, that transistor is also kind of this people first very calm bubble, but I forgot that outside the bubble, there's so many other people that are being impacted Mhmm. By these, Bad work habits or communication habits. And and I think that the ability to self regulate is something that can really trans Form a team.
Jon Buda:Mhmm.
Marcella Chamorro:Because you are able to, 1, stop passing on your stress to other people with, like, snarky messages or pressure that is maybe uncalled for Mhmm. By just injecting a little bit of Calm and and kindness and giving yourself some space to breathe before.
Justin Jackson:Yeah.
Marcella Chamorro:But, also, you are able to kind of think through How productive is this message or is this task that I'm assigning or whatever it is that you're doing? How productive is it to our north star or our, You know, MRR goals or whatever that number or that whatever it is that you're working toward, like, what I'm doing, is it moving the needle or not? And if it's not, then I need to put it in somewhere else.
Justin Jackson:There's a there's a few thoughts I just had there. I mean, one, I that that what I've experienced in the past is that low margin businesses tend to have more of that kinda toxic behavior where the the owner is stressed because they can't pay their bills, and they've got a million things, and they're Downloading that stress
Marcella Chamorro:All comes from the top.
Justin Jackson:Onto the onto the employees. And, you know, I've definitely been there. That that is, often my advice to people when now that when people come to me, I'm If you can, you gotta get out of that situation because, like, that kinda downloading of stress and those low margin businesses rarely, become healthier. It's like it the they're they're they're kinda set, and there's a reason they're having troubles, and there's a reason the boss is always stressed, and there's a reason they're taking it out on you. The I think the the just thinking about even John and I, That that one thing I can definitely see is, like, we had a series of where we we we decided to dive into sales tax compliance.
Justin Jackson:And so John and I are like, okay. We're gonna do this, and we're, like, working on it. And then other stuff always comes up. It was like, oh, we gotta pay Ohio state tax, and now we gotta We have this issue over here with our regular accounting, and then, this came up. And things keep coming up.
Justin Jackson:And when we had this list of kinda like I don't know what we could call these, but, like, stuff that tasks that drag us down, that reduce our margin, our buffer in our own lives. I definitely got more snarky, and, no. Not star key. More like negative Spicy. With the people around me.
Justin Jackson:So and mostly, like, people at my coworking office and my family just like, like, I just had a shit day where all I did was look into sales tax compliance and talk to a 1000000000 different people about it and pay, expensive accounting people. And, Like, it was just Yeah.
Jon Buda:And and there's and then you have no answer still.
Justin Jackson:And we and
Jon Buda:And you end of the day, and there's, like, no resolution.
Justin Jackson:That's the most frustrating is that Yeah. Is that, you know, John and I are at our best when I think on two lines, we had this vision of, like, we're gonna build an amazing product an experience for customers, and we were just totally aligned on that. And on the same side, even when we had no money, we're like, And we're gonna build a better life for us. Like, that's the goal.
Marcella Chamorro:Oh, 100%.
Justin Jackson:And Yeah. Whenever Either of those gauges for us personally as founders goes down, like, whenever it's like we're not able to do the work that really fires us up, like we're just doing too much of this draining work, that that we we definitely aren't doing as well. When and this has actually been a a bigger struggle, I think, especially now that we have more people on the team because everybody has their own motivations. And in some way, John and I's motivation is, like, we just wanna keep this business really simple and giving us a really great life and Giving me the ability to go snowboarding when I want. And if John wants to go for a 2 hour run-in the middle of the day, he can't like, we like, We built this lifestyle that was really great.
Justin Jackson:And now, you know, we've got, 3 other people on the team, and they've got their Own motivations. You know? They've got their own things that they're trying to do in their lives. And I sometimes, it's like a struggle to figure out, like, how are we gonna balance all of this? Like and there's the other dynamic of, like, John and I still have to maintain a good relationship too.
Justin Jackson:So there's all of these levels, and, honestly, sometimes it's just overwhelming. Sometimes I just feel like
Jon Buda:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:I don't know how we're gonna do how we're gonna how we're gonna get back to this being simple and,
Jon Buda:Luckily, Justin and I don't really get into fights or arguments.
Marcella Chamorro:I can't see anybody arguing with
Jon Buda:you 2.
Justin Jackson:We've had a we have a few, but we've mostly been able to resolve that. Yeah. We were talking about this yesterday too. But, Like, during the pandemic, we didn't do a retreat for 2 years. We really noticed that, like, Where our relationship isn't as strong when we don't do at least one time where we both get away.
Justin Jackson:And this year, it just kinda like Our typical time just kinda got away from us. Yeah. There's all these things. And it's just, like, sometimes it can just managing all these levels. And then there's also just the the aspect of so those are the levels for work.
Justin Jackson:And then whatever we've got going on at home or in our personal lives, It we're also bringing that to work, but, you know, not not, usually not sharing too much. Right?
Marcella Chamorro:With a mask on, but it's behind the mask. You know what I mean? Like, you you do show up as your work self at work, but the other stuff is you're still carrying it. And I think a lot of All these challenges that you face, that everybody faces is it's all about rebounding from them because, like, we're always gonna be facing small challenges. Like, right now, it might be I I don't wanna deal with the sales tax admin stuff.
Marcella Chamorro:Like, I wanna be doing product marketing. So how how do I reframe this, if I have to do it, or do I have to? Like, what is my obstacle? What are my options? And I think that's why It's really healthy to to have somebody else to talk through these things with.
Marcella Chamorro:Because I, for example, don't have a cofounder to talk to. So I pay a coach, to that I can talk to. I for like, if I believe in coaching, I'm paying for a coach. So I have my own coach that I'm able to talk to It helps me untangle my own challenges and reframe them and find solutions that I didn't know were there because It's it's impossible to see your own strengths and weaknesses in 2020. Like, you can't see your own blind spots, but somebody else can see them sometimes very easily.
Marcella Chamorro:And maybe you guys can do that for each other, but that's also a very sensitive relationship where you don't wanna be calling somebody out all the time. It's sometime it's very nice to have an objective and nonpartial third party who can say, hey, Justin. Like, There are some options here if you wanna feel better about this sales tax situation that you've got going on. How can we reframe this, or find another solution, like, maybe outsource it. I don't know.
Marcella Chamorro:Yeah. But, no.
Justin Jackson:I think I think that's like, I think coaching would be something we would be We would be open to, because it it does help having a cofounder. Like, there's thing it's nice to And actually the reminder I need to have sometimes is I because we're in different cities, sometimes it is just easy for me to struggle on my own. And yesterday, I had this feeling of, like, I can just ask John if he can do a phone call. And then I was able to call and Express some feelings. And, and, you know, that was a really healthy thing and, probably we probably don't take advantage of that enough.
Jon Buda:But, again, I'm I'm also not, to Marcel's point, I'm not impartial.
Justin Jackson:Yes. And and that's yeah. I think the impartial part would be that that part is super valuable. Yeah. Having somebody else
Marcella Chamorro:I think also, You mentioned bringing it, like, bringing your personal life and and everything that's going on in all other aspects of your life To work, right, is because when I truly believe that when you feel your best, you do your best work. Period. Like, it's very difficult to do your best work when you're feeling underwater, When you're feeling stressed, pressured, etcetera. And so when you have somebody external to talk to, you can talk about that stuff. You don't necessarily have to talk about work.
Marcella Chamorro:A lot of the the people that I speak to my coaching partners, what what I notice is that when work is going well, We talk about other aspects of their life. Mhmm. Yeah. That those are also very valid topics. Like, work is not everything.
Marcella Chamorro:It's it's not nearly everything. So if somebody wants to talk to me about, creating healthy habits or improving their interpersonal relationships, whatever it is. Sometimes I speak to people about having patience while they wait for something that they really want in their life. There's been a lot of layoffs. Or it could be a romantic partner.
Marcella Chamorro:Whatever it is that they're waiting for. Patience is a big theme in my sessions for some reason. People are bringing that to me, and what I notice is that that's what happens when work is going really well. When work is not going well, work is the number one thing they wanna talk about, because when you're sitting at a desk from, you know, 8 to 5, 9 to 5, whatever it is, And you're on the receiving end of snarky comments or, you know, feedback that maybe isn't snarky, but maybe you're not trained To take it well or not personally
Justin Jackson:Yeah.
Marcella Chamorro:It hijacks your, your experience, And then you take work home with you. So both sides need a lot of attention and care, And that's really hard to do. Like, I can't imagine you calling John and being like, so this is going on with my son. And Sometimes I do. Don't know what to do.
Marcella Chamorro:Okay. But, John, do you wanna receive that call every day? Like, no. I don't
Jon Buda:Not every day. But Yeah.
Justin Jackson:You know? I mean, I Yeah. I go to therapy every month, and that definitely is, That's just a standing I just have a standing date. And
Jon Buda:to your point
Marcella Chamorro:I have therapy today That to excited.
Justin Jackson:To your point, like, if Whatever is not going well is the thing I'll talk about. And then, ironically, Hey. If everything else is going well, it's only then that I'll talk about, like, internal stuff. Like, Every there's no fires anywhere else. It's like, okay.
Justin Jackson:Now I can talk about, like, whatever's on my mind.
Jon Buda:Yeah. Mar Marcella, you you mentioned that, like, If things are going well at work, people will talk about other issues. Mhmm. And if things are not going well at work, they'll talk about work. But do you find A lot of times that if things are not going well at work, there might be like the underlying issues that things are also not going well in the rest of their life, And it's affecting it and, like, they kind of play off each other?
Marcella Chamorro:I haven't experienced that they play off each other. What I have experienced or the patterns that I have noticed is that there's The root cause is usually the same. So that's why I I really enjoy working on mindset Because when you dig into, like, the mindset and what is happening, I I I think in, like, 3 modalities, there's Some people are more visual. Like, let's say you you think of a memory and you have a visual of it. You might had an have an auditory component of that memory, but then you also have, like, a physical kinesthetic, modality for that memory.
Marcella Chamorro:So I'm thinking about, you know, I went skiing when I was 11, and I can see the snow. I can hear the crunching of the snow under my boot, but I can also smell the ChapStick that I was, like, constantly reapplying because my lips were super chapped. So when you work when you're going through any challenge, whether it's at, you know, Work or other aspects of your life. These three modalities are always at play. There's something either you're saying to yourself, and that's auditory, Or you're seeing something, like, you know, I walk into a a party and I feel social anxiety.
Marcella Chamorro:What am I hearing In my own head, what am I seeing in my own head? Or what am I feeling? It might be like nerves in my stomach or whatever. So when you diffuse and you work with those 3,
Jon Buda:Mhmm.
Marcella Chamorro:Everything is able to self regulate, and you can kind of show up as your best self. Yeah. But those three modalities are present at work and in the other areas of your life. So to me, it's all around I work in those 3. Yeah.
Marcella Chamorro:That's why I enjoy that Yeah. Because I can apply it
Jon Buda:to different areas. And that's I mean, like,
Justin Jackson:if you get, if if if there's something that triggers me That's related to an experience I had when I was 12. That trigger could show up at work. It could show up on Twitter. It could show up at home. It gets you up with friends.
Justin Jackson:Like, those things you know, the the number of times my my kids, like, look at me, and they're like, dad, Is something upsetting you on Twitter? And I'll be like, no. And they're like, I don't think so. I think So you you get like this when you're like
Jon Buda:Who do you fight
Marcella Chamorro:with on Twitter?
Justin Jackson:I mean, it's true. Like and some of those Triggers are not even they're just related to hurts or traumas or stuff that happened when I was a kid. Yeah. Right? It it's all the same stuff.
Justin Jackson:It shows up kinda no matter where you are. It it honestly makes sense that we would need, we would need to process our our work selves, our Personal selves, our families. It's all the same self, but, like, in some sort of coaching or therapy or whatever, you gotta process all that stuff. You know? And it's often related to the same issues, but it shows up in different ways of, like, I mean, there has been times where, like, John and I were I was feeling like something with John, and my wife is just like, just call him.
Justin Jackson:I'm like, I don't know. I don't wanna do that. I mean, I and then She's like, just call him, and then I'll, like, put it off, and then I'll call. And then it's just like and it all the feeling I had was Had nothing to do with John. It was just me being like, I think John's, like, upset with me or doesn't like me or whatever.
Justin Jackson:And and I just call, and then all of a sudden, it's like, oh, well, every things are fine.
Jon Buda:But The problem is we just hadn't talked in, like, 4 weeks or something.
Justin Jackson:Hadn't talked in 4 weeks. And so, Yeah. It's interesting how that stuff, a lot of those same issues just keep showing up, you know, in different places.
Marcella Chamorro:You mentioned something that There's this other skill that we talked about, self regulation. There's another one, which is the ability to have difficult conversations. And that doesn't mean that that it's going to be a mean conversation or a A nasty conversation. It just means it's it's gonna be uncomfortable. It it can be maybe for one person more than the other.
Marcella Chamorro:But a lot of the times, we have to have these difficult conversations to get to this other side. Like, you probably felt a lot of resistance before picking up the phone and talking to John. Yeah. And so within Teams, that's also really important To be able to give feedback or receive feedback or to say, hey. I noticed during that call that x y z.
Marcella Chamorro:I even have once received a Slack message from a cofounder at a company where I was working saying like, hey. I noticed you looked Sad on our team wide call. Is everything okay?
Jon Buda:Mhmm.
Marcella Chamorro:And I was like, wow. I never would have sent that message to somebody. You know? I'd be like, I'm gonna spec, maybe they're tired, maybe something happened, maybe. I don't know.
Marcella Chamorro:But that kind of respectful distance You know, it was a question. I could have said, no. I'm fine. I didn't, though. I was like, actually, yeah.
Marcella Chamorro:I had a conversation with this person and and I was feeling upset about it, but I'm gonna talk to them. Great idea. Let me know how it goes. And then, I had that conversation, and then everything was fine. So, A lot of the times when we let things fester because we're we're experiencing that resistance to having that conversation, first of all, that's a signal to have the conversation.
Marcella Chamorro:Your wife was right.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jon Buda:I'm glad
Marcella Chamorro:she said that. Yeah. But, but second of all, it's like, what do you think is the worst What are we imagining is going to happen? Again, we go to those 3 modalities. Like, when you think call John or there's this stuff going around, I'm feeling something about John.
Marcella Chamorro:Are you are you hearing something that, like, he, you know, he he might be feeling a certain way. Are you seeing something? Like, for example, when I think about, like, cold pitching My coaching, I imagine a face of somebody receiving the call the email and being like, ugh. You know, like, I imagine a cringe face, And so I don't. I shy away from that activity.
Justin Jackson:Oh, interesting. For me, it's all in the heart. It's just like, I just feel something inside. Like, I don't think we're k. You know, like, it it's it's more of a
Marcella Chamorro:Wanna hug you both
Jon Buda:right now. Like, you don't you don't want me to confirm your suspicions or something?
Justin Jackson:I mean, if you did, it would probably still be fine because then we're at least facing it. I I often feel those things, I think. And then, Yeah. The the the answer is usually just, like, confronting it. More connection.
Justin Jackson:Don't ignore it.
Jon Buda:You have
Marcella Chamorro:to be careful about it. Right? Like, there there are ways to have those conversations where they can go really wrong. Yeah. And I think Do
Justin Jackson:you have some
Marcella Chamorro:tips? This book called I do. Have you read Radical Candor? It's a great book. Radical Candor is I can summarize it really quick for you.
Marcella Chamorro:There's 2 things that are important. 1, you have to care personally about the person, and you have to be able to challenge them directly.
Jon Buda:Mhmm.
Marcella Chamorro:So but when you challenge, like, when you challenge somebody directly, there's 2 ways that it can go wrong, which you can be you can be obnoxious aggressive, which I have worked with somebody who is very aggressive and abrasive for seemingly no reason, and that is obviously not a situation you wanna be in. And then there is, like, ruinous empathy because what that is is I'm gonna avoid Having this conversation because I want, you know, I don't wanna hurt your feelings, or I don't want to risk our relationship by offending you, so I'm just gonna avoid the discomfort. And then but if that happens, then The team's work suffers because there's no honesty there. And then there's this, third one which is, like, you can be Insincere, but in a manipulative way. Like, I want you to like me, so I'm not gonna tell you.
Marcella Chamorro:I'm not gonna be straight with you because I don't wanna it's not that I don't wanna avoid the conflict. It's that I want you to like me, and so I'm manipulating you a little bit. So You wanna avoid those 3. I think most teams that I, I'm involved with a fall under that second, like that ruinous empathy, or I don't wanna hurt your feelings. So how can you show somebody that you do care personally, but you want to help them grow by sharing x y z
Justin Jackson:Yeah.
Marcella Chamorro:Feedback or guidance or whatever.
Jon Buda:I think the last place I was working at before transistor, there was a lot of that. There was, like, Everyone seemingly wanted to get along, and then there was, like, back channel Slack, just people talking shit about everyone.
Marcella Chamorro:Yeah. When When there's a meeting after the meeting, that's that's no.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The the the tricky part about a lot of this is that there's tension on alls on in different directions. For example, I remember I I would at a young age, I was given some, leadership positions.
Justin Jackson:And, you know, I'm Feeling good about myself. I'm feeling like, okay. I'm the leader here. And then I would go to someone with some some feedback, and I felt like I was being sincere. I felt like, you know, I cared about the other person, all these things.
Justin Jackson:But it turns out that my insight was wrong. Meaning, like, you know, here's the issue that I wanna talk about. But I was just wrong about the issue, and that is also possible. Like, you can have somebody coming to you with All the right they they've checked all the boxes, but, I get this on Twitter a lot. Like, people come to me going, like, Man, you seem, like, really upset.
Justin Jackson:I'm like, no. I'm not. I'm fine. Well, no. I could tell you're upset right now.
Justin Jackson:It's like, I'm actually fine. Well, if you were fine yeah. And it's like, well
Marcella Chamorro:Do a lot of fighting on Twitter, Justin. What's going on?
Justin Jackson:But this is the thing. This is the thing. It's like, the, the point of view Is is plays into this. Right? There are bosses that just have the wrong point of view.
Justin Jackson:They're not not every boss is gonna be right all the time. And so, you know, you can go to someone and give them feedback, and and they might be feeling like, well, this is my boss. They're giving me The the radical candor approach, they did everything right. But in the back of their minds, they're like, but is he right? I don't know.
Justin Jackson:Like, it's hard to know. In real life, I find all that stuff more messy. Right? Like, the there there's, especially, You know, it could just be, I've got different values than you. You know, the boss might think, well, you're, I don't know.
Justin Jackson:I I'm I'm speaking generally, but your your your behavior is unacceptable. But it turns out there's just a they just have different values. And it's not like I mean,
Marcella Chamorro:I think if you're getting that feedback, you're kinda fucked. Like Yes. Your behavior's unacceptable. I'm I'm talking more like, You know, metrics, data driven. Like, something where you can I would imagine that If if there's a leader that I'm working with that they are willing to have the person that they're giving feedback To be able to give them their own perspective and point of view back and just be clear and kind, you know, because I do think in the words of Brene Brown, I'm her biggest fan girl?
Marcella Chamorro:Clear is kind. Yes. Like, just be clear. And if you disagree, say it, in a very respectful way And give your reasons for that. And like that way, it can be a conversation, but I I get it at the end of the day, boss's boss.
Marcella Chamorro:And if you But you can get to the point where you say, okay. I disagree for this this this reason, but I'm happy to try out your approach and see what happens. And we can I hate the term, but circle back, you know? Hopefully, those those conversations We'll make the work better. And at the end of the day, we'll drive the business forward.
Marcella Chamorro:Because at the end of that, you don't want somebody who just says Yes. Like a yes, man. A yes woman just does whatever the CEO wants. And then why did you hire them for? You want experts that are Willing to and able to give you their opinions and their perspectives so that with more cards on the table, then you can see what's What's what?
Jon Buda:Mhmm.
Marcella Chamorro:Right? I don't know. Yeah. I guess maybe that's just my perspective, but the majority of people I work with share that.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The I I also like, Mel Robbins, she has the, connection over correction, idea, which, Just resonates with me because it's like, am I seeking to connect or am I seeking to correct? Like, is somebody wrong on the Internet Or am I just trying to connect with other people and, you know, drive the conversation forward or, move the work forward or whatever?
Justin Jackson:I think it does in practice, it actually does get messier than than like, the the human messiness you alluded to earlier. I'm trying to think of oh, I I had a pervert like, a work situation where I'm in charge of product. Someone was just deploying stuff without any checks. Like, they were just deciding to deploy stuff. And one day, they just started decided to change the font on the whole in the whole app.
Justin Jackson:And it was actually affecting users, like, things didn't look right or whatever. And And I remember I got upset about it. I said I I went to them directly said, hey. You know, we've got to talk about this. We have a process, And you keep not going through the process, and it's actually affecting things for other people.
Justin Jackson:And, he was not Responsive. And then when I brought it to the leadership, they basically said, well, you guys are stressing us out. You so you figure it out yourselves. And there's just a lot of mess in there. Right?
Justin Jackson:It's like there's lots to figure out. And At the at the end of the day, this particular person, like, the way it netted out was they just weren't right. This wasn't the right position for them. They kept getting bored, And so they kept doing all these things on their own because they were bored. And then, eventually, they the company realized they had to go.
Justin Jackson:Right? But there's mess in that. There's mess, and and it took years for it to shake out. That's just how it happens. You know?
Justin Jackson:Like, that's just That's the figuring those things out in a in a moment is So hard because there's so many variables. It's hard to know what's going on. You know? Yeah.
Jon Buda:If if you knew that that person was bored earlier, then you probably could've Fix the situation.
Marcella Chamorro:I think if that person has the ability to have a difficult conversation and be able to be honest and say, I'm bored.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. Yeah.
Marcella Chamorro:So there was a lot being kind of pushed into the rug. I I was in a work situation recently where, I was It was like day 5 of not being paid on time. Like, David did I was late 5 days. And when I I was constantly reaching out and hearing crickets, Like, hey. What's going on?
Marcella Chamorro:Anything needed on my end? Like, happy to help. Blah blah. Trying to keep it very positive. And when I finally got in touch, or got a response.
Marcella Chamorro:It was a very abrasive and aggressive response. And when I said, like, you know, I'm payment is essential to my family. I have children and whatever. And I received LOL. Oh, nice.
Marcella Chamorro:Like, yeah. Not the right position for me. Let's go, folks. Right out. You know?
Marcella Chamorro:Yeah. So I think in a lot of those situations where you do hit, like, a wall, Some something has to give. In this case, I was like, I'm removing myself from this organization as quickly as possible. Yeah. Yeah.
Marcella Chamorro:But, what I did get there was A lot of content and a lot of realization of, like, empathy for people who are in this situation and do not have the privilege to be able to Decide to do something else Mhmm. Right away. It has to stay. So, in those situations where things just go wrong, I do try to say, like, alright. What is what is here for me?
Marcella Chamorro:What is here for me? What can I what did I contribute to this mess? What red flags did I not see, or not pay attention to. What did I contribute? And then how can I avoid that in the future?
Marcella Chamorro:And how can I how can I level up Yeah? Like me? You know?
Justin Jackson:You know you know, one thing I keep thinking about as you're speaking is and even John and I thinking about some of the conversations we've had lately, which is If if part of the root problem or the challenge for us is like, wow, there's just so many things we've We have to keep track of there there's really only a few options. Right? We can simplify. Like, we can just do less things. We can make this like, we've just decided we're not gonna do enterprise sales because it just adds too much to our team.
Justin Jackson:So, okay. We're just going to do less. The second thing we can do is get help. So like the, The in the same way that, you know, now John and I are like, maybe we should just this sales tax thing, every time we look at it, it really bums us out. Maybe we just need if it's something we have to do, maybe we just need to get help.
Justin Jackson:And I think in the same way that When you're, a founder of a company or leading a company, just the the weight of everything can just Feel overwhelming, including, like, your you told the story of the CEO reaching out to you in Slack saying, hey, is everything okay? It's like There's some days where I think, you know, John and I feel like we could be that person, and then there's other days it's like, fuck me. Like, I can't I I could barely take care of myself right No. You know? Yeah.
Justin Jackson:And and I think the answer to the overwhelm is just well, How can you create margin? And maybe it's to, like, hire someone like you or, like, just get some help so that, you know, we're not the only ones Playing that role on a team.
Marcella Chamorro:Yep. And I also think, like, to your point, like, every obstacle or every every challenge Has interference. And how can you face that interference? How can you get over that interference? There's a bunch of solutions.
Marcella Chamorro:There's all these options Then maybe you just need help shining a light on them, you know, and in in this case, it might be getting help or whatever. But I also know that on some teams, there's more of a sense of Calm and overwhelmed and less overwhelmed because they have a bigger team in terms of, like, admin stuff. So there are There's different ways to solve all kinds of challenges. What happens is when you're in your own head a lot, you can't see the can't see it. You know, you just get too bogged down in this sucks.
Marcella Chamorro:This sucks. This sucks. I don't wanna do this.
Jon Buda:It's almost, yeah. I mean, it is, it is almost like
Marcella Chamorro:not having, Sorry.
Jon Buda:Not having that difficult conversation with someone where Yeah. You're just putting it off and putting it off. Meanwhile, there's other stuff happening and piling on top of that. It's kind of the same with, like, All these tasks we just Yeah. Need to do.
Jon Buda:We Yeah. We put them off, but there's other stuff that comes up. And now that's on top of the other thing. Yeah. And before you know it, it's like, oh, wow.
Jon Buda:We're not like, we have all this other stuff we wanna do for the product that is really fun and amazing. Yeah. And is maybe getting, like, pushed back or slowed down a bit because of Yeah. Other things.
Marcella Chamorro:You know? And what's interesting is that I always feel like a magician because, Like, in my sessions, when I mentioned because people can't see their own stuff very clearly
Jon Buda:Mhmm.
Marcella Chamorro:And I can because I'm just sitting on the So I I get to, like, present, like, all these magical solutions. I'm like, have you considered blah? And they're like, no. Fuck. That is that's Genius.
Marcella Chamorro:Yeah. And I'm like
Justin Jackson:Just the outside perspective.
Marcella Chamorro:Exactly. So I'm not I'm not anything special. I guess I'm trained in all this Stuff. And I will always continue training, but, like, a lot of the value in having somebody to speak to is just that they're not you.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. You know what I mean? Totally.
Marcella Chamorro:So Yes. It's a very Special seat to be able to sit in, sometimes feels like a little bit like miraculous because I'm like, I just signed up. I just clicked the Zoom link, and here I am. We're having this conversation, and now all this this person's challenge is just completely I don't wanna say solve, but, like, just so clear, and now action steps are lined up. And then 2 weeks later, they come back and they're, like, went great.
Marcella Chamorro:So what do we work on next? I'm like, great. Let's do something new. You know? And and to be able to help people with that is It's pretty badass.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. Sounds awesome. I think we're gonna have to have you come back because the we we got into it feels like we just scratched the surface of a lot of the things that you cover. And yeah. You're you're, you're welcome back anytime.
Justin Jackson:If people have been listening I'd
Marcella Chamorro:love to.
Justin Jackson:And they wanna get a hold of you because they wanna work with you, they wanna get some coaching, either for their team or As founders, how can they reach out?
Marcella Chamorro:They can reach me at marcella.co. So marcella.c0. My newsletter, Self work is there?
Jon Buda:And and what what type of people are you generally looking for? Like, any anyone? Just anyone that's Wants to work through some work life stuff.
Marcella Chamorro:Never turned somebody away that needs support. Like I work with entrepreneurs who don't have teams, for example, just solopreneurs. But, and I definitely always have to like vibe With the person. If I can't imagine myself having a very amicable conversation for many hours and enjoying it, I probably shouldn't should not coach them. But that being said, I get the most energy and, like, Exuberant feedback from working with when I am able to work with a team and It's always optional because you can't force somebody to do coaching.
Marcella Chamorro:But if you give somebody the option to do it, they usually do say yes. I would say, like, maybe, like, 90 to 95% of the people say yes, And they really enjoy it. Always want to come back for more, which is like my barometer for enjoyment of coaching. And what I love about that is that you get to the root cause. You you you're able to support the organization on all these different levels.
Marcella Chamorro:But, Also, when teams are not up for it, I do I do talk to individuals. Usually, like, those rising stars need a lot of support, And they're hungry. And I think people who choose to do coaching wanna be really good at what they do, and they wanna have a really good life. Like, they are looking to optimize their time on planet Earth. I don't see people who don't care too much signing up for coaching.
Marcella Chamorro:You know, just like I play basketball, but, you know, for fun versus I wanna be Michael Jordan. I'm gonna work with all the different coaches, and I'm going to work on every single aspect of my game. 2 very different profiles. People who sign up for coaching really want to, improve how they show up at work And also other areas of their life. I mean, there are people who just coach moms.
Marcella Chamorro:That's not me, but, like, it applies to every aspect of your life. If you wanna get really good, you you need a lot of support and push, to get there.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. And that outside perspective, like you said,
Jon Buda:It's an easy thing to forget. I mean, I was, you know, I grew up in in sports and swimming and and like a good coach makes, I mean, it makes like Such a difference. I mean, I've had bad coaches. I have good coaches, and it just, like, is night and day. Yeah.
Marcella Chamorro:Think about your life and think about the people who have really made you feel Like, they saw your potential and that they really believed in your potential. Like, really thought, Justin, John, you can do amazing things. I know you can.
Justin Jackson:Mhmm.
Marcella Chamorro:And those people probably, like, framed And and built the majority of, like, your self worth because I think back to teachers and things like that. And so, like, if I can be that for people, That's incredibly powerful. So like I said, I'll never turn somebody away after, like, the vibe filter, But, I do think that my startup experience gives me a lot of, Like, leverage in that area where I can be extra helpful.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. Do
Marcella Chamorro:you know what I mean?
Justin Jackson:Yeah. I highly recommend Marcela's newsletter. I read every time you said one, I read it. I find it it helpful.
Marcella Chamorro:Thank you.
Justin Jackson:Like, every time I, a new one comes in, it's very helpful. And if you're looking for a place to start, that's a great place to start. Just really great stuff. Thanks so much, Marcela, being here. This was awesome.
Jon Buda:Yeah. Thank you very much. This is great.
Marcella Chamorro:Thanks for having me, guys. This is awesome. I love seeing you, both of you. Yeah. Like, if I could, I'd give you a little little hugs.
Justin Jackson:Alright. Well, that was a great conversation. John, why don't we thank The people who support us on Patreon.
Jon Buda:Yeah. Thanks as always to everyone. We have Pascal from Sharpen dot page, the fine folks at rewardful.com, Greg Park, Mitchell Davis from recruitkit.com.au, Marcel Falais from wearebold.af, Ethan Gunderson, Anton Zoran from prodcamp.com, Bill Kondo, Ward from memberspace.com, Russell Brown from votivo.com, Avangro Sassy, Austin Loveless, Michael Sitfer, Fathom Analytics, our friends, my brother Dan Buddha Mhmm. Colin Gray, and Dave Junta.
Justin Jackson:Junta. You know, I've been, Junta's and I have been interacting on Mastodon.
Jon Buda:Oh, yeah.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. Interesting. Folks can follow him at djunta@mastodon.social. Thanks, everyone. We'd love to hear what you thought of this episode.
Justin Jackson:Shoot us a DM or a message on any of the places, and we will talk to you next time we do an episode. Bye.
