Let's chat about the podcast industry
Hey. Welcome to build your SaaS. This is the behind the scenes Story of building a web app in 2018. It's almost 2019 or December 12th today. I'm Justin Jackson.
Justin Jackson:I'm one of the co Founders, my, friend and cofounder John Buda isn't here this week. Instead, what we're gonna do Is play a little bit of this interview. This conversation I just had with Harry Duran. I think it think his last name is Duran. He has a show called Podcast Junkies and, you know, when you're being interviewed by someone Also, sometimes they can pull out all sorts of things from you that you wouldn't normally kind of express yourself.
Justin Jackson:And so, yeah, I thought it would be interesting for you to hear it. Let's get into it.
Harry Duran:Get into Transistor in a bit, but You guys talk about how to get more people acclimated to podcasting and doing it the right way.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. And, you know, I I'm always Fascinated by patterns and I'm I'm always really interested in, you know, what kind of anxiety Do people have when they start a podcast? What kind of questions do they have? What are the things that The manufacturers in this case aren't thinking about. And if you Google Yeti mic placement and then you go to image search.
Justin Jackson:You get this image of A Yeti sitting at a table and then you know that old Blue Yeti mic that everyone used to get. Well, apparently, a lot of people were pointing it right at their face Similar to how you would with a dynamic microphone, but that's not the way the microphone works. Right? And, It's just interesting to me that there's there's, you know, manufacturers of mics. There's in our case, we do podcast dosing, But there's all these anxieties people have or problems they have as soon as they open up the box.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. Like, the first question I have about a microphone is where where do I put it in relation to my face? And what's the best way you know, what how do I get a sound? How do I sound like Ira Glass? And, you know, that tip you gave me about a way to reduce, you know, the way my p's pop.
Harry Duran:Yeah. Plosives.
Justin Jackson:That that's, sorry. What do you call that? Plosives?
Harry Duran:Plosives. Yeah. They're called plosives.
Justin Jackson:Okay. That's gold. I that's the stuff I wanna know, and I've been podcasting since 2012. That's interesting. And I think, podcasting has lots of things like that.
Justin Jackson:Lots of anxiety inducing situations. Right? Like, what bit rate do I use? How do I save my files? Oh my gosh.
Justin Jackson:Like, what microphone do I get? Do I need a
Harry Duran:I Don't like the sound of my I don't I don't like the sound of my voice.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't like the sound of my voice is a really common one. Yeah. Did you have that when you started?
Harry Duran:I think everybody does. It's so funny because the more you're in it, the more you see podcasters who are just getting started. Like, they have, like, The same exact questions like imposter syndrome, like, I started a podcast about podcasting, and there was already like half a dozen out there. There's like, Daniel J. Lewis, Audacity Podcast, Dave Jackson School of Podcasting, Ray Ortega Podcaster's Roundtable, the Wolf Den stuff.
Harry Duran:It was just like so much stuff. And I was like, Like, who am I? But, you'll appreciate this founder story because I know you're friends with him. Chase Reeves. Yeah.
Harry Duran:Right? I saw I went to New Media Expo in 2,000 teen. He was there talking about podcasting to, You
Justin Jackson:know what? I was there. I was on that panel with Mike Vardy and Chase Reeves.
Harry Duran:In 2014? Yeah. Oh my
Justin Jackson:god. Apparently, I wasn't that memorable.
Harry Duran:That's hilarious. So I was so focused because I knew Chase from Fizzle, right, and the Fizzle Show, and he had been to the first couple of, the first podcast movement. Yeah. So we basically chatted for a bit, and and I and I asked him some questions. The app never took off.
Harry Duran:I went to the conference because I was gonna Start a podcast for DJs, January DJs to help promote the app. Yeah. And then I realized how hard it was gonna be to get in contact with these globe Trotting DJs, and I'm like, look at the all these podcasters here. I love podcast. And then I went back home, the the domains miraculously was available, podcast junkies.
Harry Duran:How do you know Chase?
Justin Jackson:Yeah. I know Chase well. And, actually, that was the first time we we met in person. Okay. He'd we'd known each other on the Internet, And he begged me to come and be on that panel with him.
Justin Jackson:And, that's when I met Mike Vardy and a bunch of other folks. And funny enough, I have not been back to Does New Media Expo even exist anymore?
Harry Duran:No. It was a couple more years, and then they folded.
Justin Jackson:And I've never been to a podcast movement yet either. And so that's on my to do list is I wanna I'll especially now with transistor, there. Maybe we could get into this a little bit. But Yeah.
Harry Duran:I think we will.
Justin Jackson:There there's different schools of podcasting. There's different, There's different countries. There's different not countries. I mean, metaphorically, there's different groups.
Harry Duran:Yeah. And Feels a bit like high school sometimes.
Justin Jackson:It feels a little bit, but like high school. Yeah. And I mean, in some sense, it's it's great. But one of the challenges for Transistor early on is I really wanted us to focus on some sort of niche. I didn't wanna just say this is a podcast hosting platform for all podcasters.
Justin Jackson:For example, I knew We probably weren't going to be for hobby podcasts.
Harry Duran:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:Although I'm surprised we are We we have the the most expensive starter plan I think in the industry right now and we still have Folks who are starting a hobby podcast signing up.
Harry Duran:Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:But, yeah. So Figuring that out, who is this for and what is it for has been kind of one of the challenges of starting it. And I knew what kind of shows I liked to make, and I knew what kind of shows I like to listen to. But I didn't, You know, not all the shows I like to make and not all the shows I like to listen to make great customers.
Harry Duran:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:And so yeah. We were we've been debating that from the beginning. And I think the the biggest tension right now is, you know, we have folks on the platform that have, that are kind of Internet personalities, you know, and they've got their show, you know, Even in some sense, like Cards Against Humanity was our first customer.
Harry Duran:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:And they have a huge following, But very kind of artsy and cultural and, you know, liberal and the show is a show, You know, not really about business or anything else. It's, they're they have a good news podcast where it's every day they Have 5 minutes of good news. And, you know, we've had to think, do we want more of those customers? How many of their are there? Or, you know, and what we've settled on for now is that we're podcasting for brands, for businesses.
Justin Jackson:So that might be personal brands, that might mean, you know, a solo founder that wants to start a show, that might mean a lawyer that has a law firm that wants to start a show, That might mean, you know, a bigger brand like Cards Against Humanity that want to have their own branded podcast. But, You know, there's there's lots of groups in podcasting.
Harry Duran:Yeah. And you can't do all things to everyone. So just for the benefit of the listener, you're talking about is transistor.fm. It's, a relatively new player on the podcast hosting Mark in podcast hosting space. Yeah.
Harry Duran:And I I heard about you because a couple of people were, recommending you as some of the newer platforms to check out. And then when I saw it was you, because I knew about you from Product People, I got even more interested. And then like any podcaster, there was a crazy Venn diagram of like love of sass, Love of podcasting, like podcast junkies. And then I saw the podcast, and I was like, Oh man, I'm gonna have to binge this. And I did.
Harry Duran:And I listened at on the overcast, and I listened at, like, 1 and a half, 2 x. And I just, like, started going at it. I was getting through, like, 3, 4 episodes A a day walking the dog. And I was like, I would do I would do 1 trip around the block, and I would get at least 1 or 2 episodes in. So So so that's build your sass.
Harry Duran:And before that, you started product people. So we'll get into all of that stuff. But do you remember or can you tell the Story of, like, your first, podcast or or what your entry was into this world?
Justin Jackson:Sure. Yeah. So in 2012, I was a product manager for a software company in Edmonton, Alberta. And I had you know, there's a bit of a tech scene there. BioWare has their headquarters there.
Justin Jackson:And so there's kind of this little scene and I was interested in meeting other product managers. And so, I met my friend Kyle Fox, and we would go for beers. And then I moved to British Columbia so I could be closer to the mountains. And when I moved, he said, you know, it'd be great to still keep in touch. But what if we started a podcast for originally, we thought it would be for Product managers.
Harry Duran:Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:But the more we thought about it and we we came up with the name product people. But the more we thought about it, the people we wanted to interview were product people, but they were founders. You know, independent founders mostly. People that had, you know, the folks that founded Basecamp, the folks that, you you know, founded ConvertKit. We wanted to talk to those people.
Harry Duran:Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:And so we made this list, this wish list of all these guests that we would wanna talk to. And we I just started contacting them. And yeah. It's great. We're we're still we still haven't hit a 100 episodes with people, but I think it's gonna happen.
Justin Jackson:I've got, you know, a bunch of episodes in the in the can that I just need to edit. I mean, we it wasn't like that. Product People itself was never a super popular show. But what it did is it attracted this group of founders that wanted to hear their friends, you know, they, they wanted to hear. And so in terms of building a network, it was amazing.
Justin Jackson:And yeah. I I think if it wasn't for that show, I would definitely not know the people I know and I definitely wouldn't be where I'm at right now. It it's also the reason I met John Buda, my partner in Transistor.
Harry Duran:Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:Because We were at XOXO. And he, had already dabbled in, you know, Podcasting and podcasting tech. And it became a thing for us to talk about. Oh, hey. I've got a show called product people.
Justin Jackson:And, You know, we stayed in touch all those years. And so when it came time to, you know, I knew he was thinking about building something for Cards Against Humanity.
Harry Duran:Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:And I said, well, what if we partnered up on this and really, you know, Try to make it a not a big deal, but, you know, let's let's try to do this, you know, together.
Harry Duran:I think it's so interesting because, it's a lot of parallels because, like, like we mentioned, I think it might have been the the the pre talker when we started That I do video for these conversations. And you can imagine having an hour long conversation with someone face to face completely changes the dynamic. And when you see them at a podcasting conference, I'm like, oh, they're like, hey, Harry. Like, hey, Justin. And it's I mean, there's a bit of bit more of a a friendship and a connection.
Harry Duran:Yeah. And you alluded to it too. Like, you wouldn't have some of the connections you have now or friends you have now if it wasn't for the podcast. Yeah. And it's one of like The most important ways to build your network in a niche, you know, and the fact that it was more niche is even better because it's like, it became known as the go to place or the go to podcast Within, like, folks who are doing SaaS and and startup founders, it's like, we wanna hear what our peers are doing, or if we're gonna dabble in the space, we wanna hear what others are doing.
Harry Duran:And And it's so fascinating because I I I like this idea of, like, a super, super niche crowd. And it's like, this is not for everyone. This is for this, like, The Kevin Kelly 1,000 fans, you know? Yeah. You know, and it's just for those people and building that that idea of building your network.
Harry Duran:And now, like you say, you just still have it. It it never goes away, and it and it's like this opportunity for you. Like, oh, I see a founder I wanna talk to. I have this podcast, And then I can pull out. And so, you know, we make the rules.
Harry Duran:I always tell people, look. It's your show. You make the rules. And it's up up to everyone else and the listeners to decide if they They like them, and they're gonna follow along.
Justin Jackson:Totally. Yeah. And asking what you want is such a powerful question. Because at the beginning, what did we want? Well, we wanted to have a chat every week because we liked each other.
Justin Jackson:We wanted to have an opportunity to speak to the most interesting people
Harry Duran:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:In our world. And at the beginning, like, now to me, that seems totally attainable.
Harry Duran:Yeah. If If
Justin Jackson:I wanna speak to this person, it it doesn't even feel like a an obstacle. But back then, I just remember thinking, Why would they ever wanna talk to me? Why why you know, what am I doing? I don't even know how I don't even know proper microphone technique. I don't know how to record this.
Justin Jackson:There's all sorts of reasons that I thought, you know, maybe I wouldn't, Like, why would they wanna speak to me?
Harry Duran:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:But by, you know, this is what I want. I wanna be able to connect with these people. And so by articulating that, you know, and then once we reach that stage, it was like, okay. Well, now we want to get a sponsor. Now we want to, you know, It kept kind of growing what we wanted, but being able to articulate this is what I want is so powerful.
Justin Jackson:And I think maybe along with that, choosing something when you When you're deciding what you want, choosing something that is with attainable at least. It's at least in the realm of possibility.
Harry Duran:Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:If you've never recorded your voice and you're and you think I want to get a 1000000 listeners in 3 months. That that is not really in the realm of possibility. But if you've never recorded your voice and you think, you know, I just wanna see if I can do this for 10 episodes and be somewhat compelling To 10 people.
Harry Duran:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:That is a lot more attainable. And it's still a giant leap forward for You as a person. Right?
Harry Duran:As podcasters, we're like, we we're we're like in the desert looking for the oasis of, like, feedback. And I'm just like, is anyone talking about my show? Anyone like it? Did anyone listen to it? Like Yeah.
Harry Duran:You know, and so every time so I go to a conference, I wear a bright yellow podcast chunky shirt. So people see it, they're like, oh, I love the show. And I'm like, When did you start listening? Like, how long have you been listening for like Yeah.
Justin Jackson:Give me anything. Come on, tell me.
Harry Duran:I know you mentioned breaker, like folks are responding on breaker too to the show. So, Yeah. You know, there's so many apps to keep up, but it's nice to have that that that engagement with your audience.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. Yeah. It's probably still the piece that's a little bit broken. Although, I think if you're resonating, you do hear about it. So on one hand, even I was just listening to, Alex Bloomberg interviewing Ira Glass.
Justin Jackson:What is I what is Alex's new show? I think it's called Masters of Scale.
Harry Duran:No. That's a Reid Reid Hoffman show. Oh, that's
Justin Jackson:Reid Hoffman show. Okay.
Harry Duran:I will love that show.
Justin Jackson:Okay. I'll It's
Harry Duran:so good.
Justin Jackson:So don't listen well, go ahead and listen to that one, but I'll find the one that I'm talking about.
Harry Duran:That's the not startup. Right?
Justin Jackson:Now without fail is it is what it's called.
Harry Duran:Without fail. Okay.
Justin Jackson:Without fail, his episode with Ira Glass. And, You know, Ira has been doing this forever. He, in some ways invented the genre.
Harry Duran:Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:And He, even he, feels like he doesn't get enough feedback when the show goes out. He he he said one of the nice things about live podcasts is you get Instant feedback from the audience. You know if it's resonating or not. But, you know, typically a podcast goes out and You might not hear anything and you go, oh. So if it's happening to him Yeah.
Harry Duran:It's true.
Justin Jackson:It's probably happening to lots of folks. But I think, you know, like, John and I have this show. And we have In Transistor, we we estimate how many subscribers we think your show has. And I think we have an estimated 1300 subscribers. So 1300 regular listeners.
Justin Jackson:Not huge by any means. But we know that they're engaged because we hear from them all the time. They'll use our little chat widget on our, Like, our customer support widget to contact us. They will email us. They will DM me on Twitter.
Justin Jackson:They will Mhmm. At reply us on Twitter. They find a way. And so I think if we were doing the show and I wasn't getting any of that Yeah. I would be a bit concerned.
Justin Jackson:So it's almost kind of you you have both. There's probably way more people listening and enjoying than you think.
Harry Duran:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:But, you know, if you're inviting people to respond and you're not hearing anything, that
Harry Duran:That is something to be said about the content too. The content has to be compelling enough or
Justin Jackson:That's concerning. Yes.
Harry Duran:Not Controversial or just strike a chord with them because I know you you talk about a topics on the show. Yeah. And you're like, if you what do you guys think of this topic? And you invite people to to chat about it.
Justin Jackson:Yes. It has It has to be compelling. Yeah. I think that's the that's really the bar that's difficult. To be honest, it's one of the things that makes me Scared about running a podcast hosting company is because, yes, anybody can buy a microphone on Amazon for $60.
Justin Jackson:Mhmm. And, yes, we're trying to make it easier for folks to get hosting, to upload their m p threes, to understand that, you know, just upload your show to Apple. You know, We're putting in all this work. That's good work. It's worth doing.
Justin Jackson:But if you are not interesting or compelling or your content isn't surprising or engaging, Nothing's gonna nothing's gonna help.
Harry Duran:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:And some of that comes with time. But I like, if we backed up even more. So I said, okay. I started podcasting in 2012. The truth is, I mean, I've loved radio my whole life.
Justin Jackson:I grew up in Canada. We have CBC, which is our public radio. And I'd been listening to, you know, talk radio since I was a kid. Yeah. And Aspirationally, you know, I can remember being a kid and wishing I was a host on that show Or wishing I could join the conversation.
Justin Jackson:And, you know, when I got my driver's license at 16, sometimes I would be listening to the radio, And I'm driving by myself, and I would turn it off and then pretend I was in the conversation. Pretend I was the host or the guest. So I've been practicing these things for a long time. I've been to be
Harry Duran:You were meant to be a podcaster.
Justin Jackson:I was maybe meant to be a podcaster. And again, I'm not perfect. I know there's lots of ways I can improve. But this is why I'm I I don't think everybody can be a podcaster.
Harry Duran:Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:In in the sense that I think it's it's within the realm of possibility that everybody could do it, but these things don't happen overnight.
Harry Duran:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:And so if if you just don't like, if you don't like podcasts, if you don't If you've never played the role of, oh, I really want to enter into this conversation. And if you've never tested it out, like, you've never been, you know, pretending you were on a podcast or Or even being on a a panel at a meetup or something. Like, you need some
Harry Duran:Public speaking. Public
Justin Jackson:speaking. Doing a presentation in class, doing a presentation for your team at work, doing a live stream. If you've never done any of that, it it just it's not gonna happen overnight. So sometimes I almost wanna I wish I could ask folks Before they start, like, yeah, if this would be terrible for for transistors conversion, you know, trial to paid conversion. But I if I could say, what evidence can you provide me that you're going to be somewhat interesting on a microphone?
Harry Duran:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:And I'm not trying to be pompous about that. I'm trying to be realistic. You know, Ira Glass, is arguably you know, he has one of the best voices in podcast podcasting. He understands the pacing. He understands timing.
Justin Jackson:He understands editing and storytelling, and he's been doing this Ever since he was a kid
Harry Duran:Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:It didn't happen overnight. He practiced and practiced and practiced and practiced. Now we don't have to be Ira Glass.
Harry Duran:The problem is a lot of people now try to be Well
Justin Jackson:and that that's a that's a problem too. But at least they're trying to emulate the best. Yeah. You know, because you could learn so much just if you if you just folks, like, stop listening to us right now And go listen to any episode of This American Life. Or at
Harry Duran:least listen to the end of the episode, and then you
Justin Jackson:Okay. You're kicking I'm just joking. Hey. Where are you going? No.
Justin Jackson:Stay here. This American Life is like a super long show. Just listen here. But listen to the pacing. Go and listen to, You know, a Howard Stern episode.
Justin Jackson:And listen to all of the things that he does intuitively Mhmm. That he's developed over years years years. And if you can find it, go back to his first show and see how much he's improved.
Harry Duran:Become a student of the craft.
Justin Jackson:Become a student of the craft.
Harry Duran:So knowing that it's not easy, you you did decide to Do another one with John when you when you had this when you started Transistor. So can you talk a little bit about the the timing on that? Because you started it pretty early on in the process. Mhmm. And so is that something you always knew that this is this is something you wanted to document?
Justin Jackson:Oh, yeah. I mean, we knew we'd have to have a show.
Harry Duran:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:That experiencing How hard it is to come up with something every week is really healthy for
Harry Duran:us. Yeah.
Justin Jackson:And so And we were trying to also you know, a big part of our business is saying to other businesses, We think this is good for your brand. Yeah. We think podcasting is I don't think podcasting is the best way to grow audience from scratch. There's exceptions, but I think podcasting is really great if you have an existing audience And you wanna deepen your connection with that audience, and you wanna grow that audience organically. And so we had to prove the point.
Justin Jackson:Right? We had to say, here okay. We're gonna we're going to Eat our own dog food and and show this. And, you know, the show has been good for our business. The show does, attract customers.
Justin Jackson:The show has given us all sorts of ways of telling people about transistor. And, so I think we've proven the point, but it's also been good to, it's been good to document the process. It's been good to have, like it it's often the only time John and I speak every week, and so it's been good just for us to have A public well, I mean, the public part doesn't really it's good to just connect with them every week. Right? And And I think it's good to I, you know, I built up an audience over these, you know, since 2012.
Justin Jackson:I knew that they would be wanting to hear from me on what I was doing next. And so it was just kind of a next Natural extension of this group of people that have been following my work for years. Okay. Well, here's something new. You know, here's here's what I'm doing now.
Justin Jackson:And yeah. That that's been I think it's been great.
Harry Duran:I I You know what's interest?
Justin Jackson:I think the show will change, but I think, You know, we're always going to have some sort of way of speaking to our audience in this Human way that is audio.
Harry Duran:So, let's talk a little bit about transistor, And I have a feeling I have a ton of questions to ask you because I've been in this, you know, world for like 5 years. But what's interesting about your approach is that You and John are coming at it from people who, like, really haven't been you know, you're working more with SaaS, in the SaaS world. And then in the podcasting space, know, as you might imagine, when you go to Podcast Movement and there's Podfest in Orlando. Yeah. But you you're sort of new to that whole Group of folks, and that's why, like the high school example is kinda interesting, but
Justin Jackson:Yeah.
Harry Duran:What is It's been interesting to get your fresh take on this, like a fresh set of eyes, because, you know, a lot of people are just having Those same conversations. Yeah. And you go to these and you go to these conferences, and the Libsyn booth is next to the Blueberry booth, which is next to The, the host, whatever the other Podbean booth, which is next to the Spreaker booth, which is next to the Audio Boom booth. And it's just crazy. Like, So they're all it was like everyone's kinda playing along, but now, I mean, you guys are new.
Harry Duran:What's what's been the most interesting thing for you? Because Come out of the SaaS world and sort of entering like this this bubble of what's happening in the podcasting space.
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Justin Jackson:Alright. Let's get back to the show.
Harry Duran:This bubble of what's happening in the podcasting space.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. I mean, I was somewhat familiar with those folks. Yeah. And I have friends in the industry that, you know, Have been helpful. You know, I've got some friends at mid roll and Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:And some other things. I think from the beginning, I wanted to ask, who is this for and what is this for? And To create a connection with a group of people that fit that description and wanted that thing. For years, I have given people the advice, you know, people would contact me. And they would a lot of because I have a show called Product People, a lot of people pitch me their ideas.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. And because they knew as a podcaster, they would say, hey, I have an idea for podcasters. And I would say, well, stop right there. I think podcasters are a terrible market. I don't think you should build anything for podcasters.
Harry Duran:That's funny.
Justin Jackson:And and, please, folks, listen to the show. Don't don't get angry. This is true.
Harry Duran:Now we all know it.
Justin Jackson:I'm the same way.
Harry Duran:I My testers are
Justin Jackson:I we're cheap. We like to DIY. You know? We were talking before the the call about my audio setup. I'm using this Cheap $50 microphone.
Harry Duran:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:Right? It's just plugged right into my computer. Now some podcasters spend more on gear, But they are so in the DIY mindset. They want to, you know, they wanna do everything themselves if they can. And I get it because I'm like that too.
Justin Jackson:But I know that makers and Podcasters and hobbyists, we don't make great customers. And so I the the reason When John told me he was thinking about transistor, the the thing that Not just the thing. The trend that I saw that I thought was interesting. And I don't know if it's who knows if it's gonna work? But the trend I saw was that brands were now starting to create their own shows.
Harry Duran:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:That, And and when I say brands, I'm I do mean everyone from the influencer to, you know, Basecamp has a show and code pen has a show. And then I saw all the things that Gimlet was doing with Gimlet Creative that, wow, that's crazy That these brands are buying are they're creating original content. And so, In some ways, quite naively, I thought, you know, I know a lot of tech companies Where the CEO loves podcasting. And I have a feeling if I said, you know, have you thought about starting a podcast? They would say, oh, yeah.
Justin Jackson:I've I've thought about that all the time.
Harry Duran:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:Well, how would you like to start a podcast for your business And have a really intimate way to earn your audience's trust. And so that's been the thesis from the beginning. Now we have all sorts of shows and under that banner, we've had to kind of stretch it, you know, Like we have a great show called supercomputer.fm Mhmm. Which is, Alex Cox who is on Tons of other podcasts. She's on a podcast called Dubai Friday, I believe.
Justin Jackson:And so she's kind of made a career out of podcasting. She's, you know, on a lot of tech shows. Her and, I I can't say Matt's last name. It's Matt Matt Casalini. Casanelli.
Harry Duran:Casanelli.
Justin Jackson:But, you know, so they have a show. And I imagine that, They're eventually going to make their money through Patreon or through ads. Yeah. But to me that's still kind of under this umbrella of Brands that are trying to in this case, it's personal brands that are trying to use podcasting as a part of their their career or their business. And that thread seemed really interesting to me.
Justin Jackson:Also the the when all of the You know, we all talk about all that that ad data that came out and we're seeing that, you know, the CPMs are still really high. Brands are still interested. It'd be nice if there's more variety in the brands, but, you know, the The the PR around podcast advert advertising is quite good. It didn't seem like a big jump to say, well, Why not just make your own original show instead of investing, you know, a $100,000 in podcast advertising this year? Why not hire a host and pay them full time to make a show?
Justin Jackson:So rework, which is Basecamp show, they have basically 2 full time people working on it. Maybe 1a half, you know? That's a fair investment. Cards Against Humanity has 2 full time people working on the Good News podcast. It just seemed like there was something there.
Justin Jackson:And I'd seen from my own side how podcasting had been a benefit to me in growing an audience and making a living. I felt like, well, I've had this experience. I can see other people have had this experience. This seems worth doing. It still feels like there's room to grow.
Justin Jackson:And still people are A lot of folks are just discovering podcasts.
Harry Duran:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:The other thing sorry. Before we go too far, because I I wanted the other thing that made me feel like I could start A podcasting company now, which, again, still might not work. I have no idea.
Harry Duran:Don't put the I'm I'm a big believer in, like, Like, putting out intentions because I this I do them every morning after my meditation. So don't put that one out there. Just put the one out that's like because the universe is listening. So you gotta be like, Oh, and when we when our company is so successful, we don't know what to do with it.
Justin Jackson:Well You know?
Harry Duran:So
Justin Jackson:This is one thing my gut is telling me Is I used to never hear normals talk about podcasts.
Harry Duran:Yeah. You mentioned that.
Justin Jackson:So when I was at a coffee shop, No one's talking about podcasting. They're talking about what's new on Netflix. They're talking about the new Harry Potter book. When I started hearing people talk about the Tim Ferriss show, I, You know, I I would turn my head like
Harry Duran:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:Just normal people in Vernon, British Columbia Talking about the Tim Ferriss podcast in a coffee shop. That's so what's going on here? And then I'd have a family reunion. And my youngest sister would come up to me and go, this is just last year. She'd go, Justin, have you heard of podcasts?
Justin Jackson:I've been listening to a lot of podcasts lately. Okay. Well One of the
Harry Duran:one of the things you and John talked about with this is this idea of transistor being mindful technology.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. It's another reason I wanted to do it. I had this moment the other day. Because I go back and forth like anybody. I some days I'm like, oh, I'm so excited about podcasting.
Justin Jackson:And other days I'm like, there's this is not going anywhere. And, you know, and I'm also kind of betting my life on this new business. And There's always this thought of, well, I hope it I hope it makes it. Everyone wants their thing to make it. Right?
Harry Duran:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:And I'm walking to my office, and I'm listening to that episode I was just telling you about, With Ira Glass and Alex Blumberg. And there's you know, it's a 30 minute walk, And there's, like, 3 moments where I laughed out loud or I Almost cried in a way of just being just hearing these stories, like, them telling stories In a way that you kind of don't get anywhere else. I'm walking. I'm not looking at a screen. I'm in the sun.
Justin Jackson:I'm getting exercise. I'm headed to work. But along for the ride is Ira Glass and Alex Blumberg.
Harry Duran:Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:And I just had three moments of kind of, of joy Where, you know, in their storytelling, I was like, ah, that is such a great moment. And there's just very few mediums, especially digital mediums that are like that. So many of our, you know, digital technology wants to suck us in and get us addicted And, you know, once our eyeballs on the screen, they want to capture our attention and monetize it and keep it Forever, they want us to be addicted to, you know, like Facebook wants us to be addicted.
Harry Duran:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:And Certainly, there are people who are addicted to podcast. I'm not saying that's not true. But the chances of that happening are just so much lower Because it's built into the technology is, this it's just different. It's a mindful technology. It's a technology that does that allows you to use it while you're doing other things.
Justin Jackson:That Yeah. In of itself is completely unique. I I tweeted the other day, I said for me Folding laundry time is podcasting time. Where do you listen to podcasts? And I tweet all the time, And I couldn't believe how many people replied.
Justin Jackson:And this idea that, you know, They're they're washing the dishes. They're walking their dog. Some people listen in the shower. I don't know how they do that. You know, They on road Traffic.
Justin Jackson:Right? In traffic, road trips. This is there's this this technology That allows people to hear stories, allows people to learn something new, allows people to engage with hosts, and really kind of build a relationship with the hosts. And it just felt different than so much of the other startups and tech companies That just want to abuse and use, the consumer. There is something very unique about it.
Justin Jackson:And I love that. And in some ways, I hope it doesn't get as big as YouTube. Because I think lots of what goes on in YouTube is gross. I don't wanna have anything to do with that. I want I want technology that doesn't, you know, require me to be addicted for there to be some sort of value.
Justin Jackson:Right? So I can listen to a podcast when I have time. What's actually interesting is that Because I am so addicted to other platforms, it's very difficult for me to listen to a podcast if I'm not doing something else. Like, if I have access to the screen
Harry Duran:Yeah. Yeah.
Justin Jackson:Or my computer, I'm not gonna listen to a podcast. And if I am, I'm gonna be, like, doing other stuff. I'm gonna miss half the show.
Harry Duran:Podcasting You can't do it.
Justin Jackson:No. And where is podcasting best? It's best when You're doing something like driving or dishes or whatever, but the the words have your complete attention. And so, I just to be involved in that space, I hope it it's big enough that it can support, you know, a bunch of people's families, and a bunch more people's families.
Harry Duran:Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:But I don't want it to be so big that that part gets ruined. I I want the some of the purity to stay and, you know, any technology that encourages people to take more walks with their dogs. To me, that's a good thing. So
Harry Duran:That is a good thing.
Justin Jackson:So that's all I'm going to share with you. If you want the full interview, we talked for almost 2 hours. Go to podcastjunkies.com. Before I head out, I wanna say thanks to everyone who supports us on Patreon. That's colingray@alitoo.com.
Justin Jackson:That's Samori Augusto. That's Mike Walker, Brad from Canada, Darby Frey, Kevin Markham, Adam Devander, and say it with me, Dave Junta. And thanks again to podcast insights.com as well. For all the show notes, head over to saas, s a a s.transistor.fm/38. And I will see you next week.
