Jon's big announcement
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Jon:Hey, everyone. Welcome to build your SaaS. This is the behind the scenes story of building a web app in 2019. I'm John Buda, a software engineer.
Justin Jackson:And I'm Justin Jackson. I do product and marketing. Follow along as we build transistor dotfm. Right when I was doing that ad segment there, my mouth just dried up, like, just all of a sudden. And I was reminded of, this conference I just went to in Calgary, Pod Summit.
Justin Jackson:There's, one of the the first speaker, Andreas Schwabbe or Schwab. Uh-huh. He actually talked about how people don't say his name right. Now I just butchered it. But Andreas, who's a former broadcaster, gave us all these incredible kind of broadcasting tips for, you know, being on the microphone, writing a good outline for your podcast.
Justin Jackson:Really, really great stuff. And the one thing he said is only drink water. Because everything else. So what did I do right before this call is I ordered an iced Americano. And that just and so I'll I'll I'll drink some more water.
Justin Jackson:But
Jon:if
Justin Jackson:if you hear somebody with a mouth that is too dry, or you hear someone with a really squishy mouth like this, just really squishy.
Jon:Eating a eating a mouthful of crackers.
Justin Jackson:That or sometimes that comes from drinking sugar water because then your mouth produces all this extra saliva.
Jon:I always get really thirsty after eating ice cream.
Justin Jackson:Oh, yeah.
Jon:And I don't know if it's the sugar or the milk.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. Yeah. I don't know either. Listeners, can someone Google that for us?
Jon:If there's any scientists out there.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. If there's any any lactose scientists, send us some info. Oh man, John, you and I, I've eaten the most ice cream of my life with you when we were in Portland and we went to, Salt and Straw.
Jon:Right.
Justin Jackson:And you guys all ordered the small ice cream, and I ordered the large one.
Jon:I think yeah. I was I always kind of, in the back of my mind, always think that a single scoop's always gonna be bigger than you think.
Justin Jackson:Yes. Yeah. It it's so true. I was I was like, I hadn't even had dairy in a long, long time. And so then and they pack, like, extra stuff in that, you know.
Justin Jackson:It's like that was like the you hit the the maple nut, moose meat, extravaganza or whatever. So there's all this extra stuff in the ice cream weighing it down. It felt like I ate £20 of ice cream.
Jon:Yeah. You might have.
Justin Jackson:Incredible place though. That salt and straw.
Jon:It's good stuff.
Justin Jackson:That's the one place in Portland that keeps delivering. I guess we shouldn't bury the lead for too long. John?
Jon:Yeah. I, have a thing to announce that I've been
Justin Jackson:Well, what's the what's the top is the topic going to be John's big announcement? It could mean so many things. It could mean you're pregnant. It could mean, like, there's it could mean, you're like the net you're on, Dancing with the Stars.
Jon:Yep.
Justin Jackson:There are so many possibilities. You've just released a new diss track, against Eminem.
Jon:My new album is dropping? Yeah. None of those are none of those are true.
Justin Jackson:So what's going on? What's the announcement?
Jon:The big the big announcement is that I have, left my full time job.
Justin Jackson:Oh my god.
Jon:Which is kinda huge. And it's a, yeah, it's a thing I I have been sort of, I don't know, reluctant to talk about
Justin Jackson:Mhmm.
Jon:Is kind of a big deal Mhmm. For myself, for and for transistor.
Justin Jackson:Mhmm. Let's get into this a bit.
Jon:So so, yeah, I, I'm leaving, for those who don't know, Cards Against Humanity, Black Box, which are kind of tied together as as a company. Mhmm. I've been there for over 5 years Wow. Which sometimes seems like forever ago and sometimes not that long ago. I can't it's it goes back and forth.
Jon:But but I was I checked the first git commit for the cartoon humanity web store that I worked on initially, and that was February 10, 2014.
Justin Jackson:Wow. So it's a long time.
Jon:Yeah. It's a long time.
Justin Jackson:You've invested in a lot of relationships there.
Jon:Yeah. A lot of good people. I've worked on just a ton of different types of projects over the years. Mhmm. You know, it wasn't just ecommerce.
Jon:There was, like, the really weird, silly, holiday stunts we did that, you know, turned out to be actually great benefits to a lot of people and raised money for certain causes. And, there's, like, a bunch of cards against humanity's, like, science scholarship stuff that we did to raise money for, providing full ride scholarships for, women in STEM.
Justin Jackson:Oh, cool.
Jon:And, there was, like, a weird phone system I helped build via Twilio, or you could call into the our the card's phone number and get this, like, choose your own adventure of it was supposed to be a support line, but really led you nowhere. And so we had, like, a handful of people, like, do all these really nice voice recordings from, like, the either the company or the comedy community who, like, wanted to participate. That's so funny. Press 1 if you're this and that, and then, like, just all sorts of random stuff. And then the last, obviously, couple years I had been there, was primarily focused on Black Box, which was this ecommerce and fulfillment service Mhmm.
Jon:That shipped and sold Crotus Humanities, but also a bunch of other companies products. So
Justin Jackson:Yeah. And it's it's kinda weird from my perspective, because I realize, like, you had this whole life there. But of course, my I never worked with you at cards. And so my experience with you is just like working on transistor and, you know, hanging out at conferences and, you know, doing other things, but I've never been with you in that context. And so, when we started transistor together and you were still working full time, I knew that that was, like, still a big part of your life.
Justin Jackson:But, you know, for me to see that inside that box was difficult. But this is a big part of your life, and I I imagine that leaving anything that you've contributed that much to is not an easy decision.
Jon:No. Not at all. Yeah. It took it took a while to actually make the decision from trying to think, like, when I actually I mean, it was always sort of the plan. Right?
Jon:Mhmm. But well, not not maybe not initially when I, you know, when I started Transistor when with before you were involved. Like, maybe it wasn't always the plan, but, like, after a while, when you saw some amount of progress and, you know, revenue was growing and, like, it was some somewhere it spring in the spring or somewhere around there where I was like, it's, you know, maybe it's it's time to, like, really seriously think about this and really sort of struggled with it for a while. And Yeah. You know, talked to, one of the guys at the office initially about it and just said, like, this is what I'm thinking.
Jon:And, you know, I I don't wanna, like, surprise you with it one day. Yeah.
Justin Jackson:So you were you you were kind of being transparent for for a while saying, hey, you know, this might happen.
Jon:This might happen. Like, here's what I'm thinking. Like, it could go could go this way or that way. I could leave. I could stay on as a contractor.
Jon:I could take a break and come back in a few months. Like, all those things were sort of on the table. But ultimately, it just felt like a better idea to just leave. Yeah. And, you know, give transistor my full attention and kinda see what we can we can do with that.
Jon:But but, yeah, it was it was tough. It was tough leave making a decision. It was tough telling people. Mhmm. Just because I have I've worked with so many different groups of people within the company on various projects and, like, you know, sometimes for months at a time and closely and yeah, like everyone's been amazing to work with.
Jon:There's a really great group of people there.
Justin Jackson:Yeah.
Jon:But but I I couldn't really give it my full attention anymore. Like, it was really split between that and transistor even though, you know, I was at the office and doing work. It was like my mind was sort of, like, constantly pulled towards transistor. Yeah. And, you know, it'll be a it'll be a change day to day.
Jon:It'll be a change financially. It'll be a change just with, like, how I schedule my days. So I'm not entirely sure what that's gonna look like, but,
Justin Jackson:Yeah.
Jon:Sort of sort of sort of in progress, I guess. And, you know, I've I've done I've done that before. I've been in that position, but never mostly as a contractor, never really as, like, building a building a SaaS company that was actually doing well. Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. Yeah. It's been so interesting to be partnered with you, because I remember going through that transition. But for me, it was probably back in, you know, back in 2014 was an initial one when I started contracting for Sprintly. And then 2016 when I went kind of fully independent.
Justin Jackson:And I do remember, especially leaving mail out, because that was like my first software job. Like, even though I felt like I was ready and I'd been kind of, you know, looking for other opportunities and, it it's still hard to leave a group of people you've been working with for a long time.
Jon:Yeah. I mean, it yeah. It becomes a family. I mean, you see those people every day Yeah. For a large portion of the day.
Jon:Mhmm. Yeah.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. And there's almost also, I mean, whether we wanna deny it or not, like, our workplaces, especially workplaces that we go to, these really do become kind of our our families. Even though I I I've I've kind of been one of these anti corporate family, people. Like, I don't want my company to be my family.
Jon:Right.
Justin Jackson:In some ways, you can't avoid it sometimes because that feeling of I'm with these people every day.
Jon:Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:And yeah. It's it's a weird feeling, especially when you know that it's probably time to move on. Like, you've done kind of all you can do there.
Jon:Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:And I think there's a difference between being content. Like right now, I'm really content with the work I'm doing. I feel like I'm being pushed just enough. I I like my lifestyle. I think that's fine, but there's all there's this contentment that that's kind of like, you know, it's past its expiration date.
Justin Jackson:Like, you you you have you're just sit you're in a place that you're just not doing your best work anymore. You're not being challenged. And it has nothing to do with the people you work with or anything. It's just, like, it's just time.
Jon:Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. It's kind of how I felt. Yeah.
Jon:I just got to a point where it was time and, like, I you know, like you said, I wasn't I wasn't doing my best work. I think, you know, in some in some way, I think it affected transistor negatively too because, like, I just you know? I obviously, I'm excited about I was always excited about transistor, but, like, you you finish a day at work, and you're just like,
Justin Jackson:Yeah.
Jon:Like, some days we're just like even if nothing really went wrong, you're just, like, so mentally drained.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. And I mean, that was a common response we would get on the show. Sometimes people who are listening out there know us better than we can know ourselves. Because they're kinda intimately they can hear our voices and, you know, the way we express ourself. They can tell when we're high energy or low energy.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:And and they were saying, man, John's starting to sound a little bit ragged.
Jon:A little rough around the edges.
Justin Jackson:And and yeah. But it makes sense
Jon:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:That Yeah. You would be you know, you were in the here, but not yet stretched between two realities. And it's it's it's hard to to when you're making that jump, Derek Sivers has this great blog post called change careers like Tarzan.
Jon:Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:And the idea is if you can picture Tarzan swinging through the jungle, he swings, and he's holding on to one vine. And then still holding on to the the that vine, he swings and he grabs a hold of the next vine. And that's when he lets go of the first vine.
Jon:Okay.
Justin Jackson:And the idea is, like, don't just, like, swing and let go of the old vine. Like, hold on to the old vine. Make sure the new one's good. And then Yeah.
Jon:There might not yeah. There might not be a new one there.
Justin Jackson:That's right. Which is like every slapstick comedy ever.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:But I I think what's what's maybe where that metaphor loses some of its new or the nuance of that is sometimes you're holding on to both vines, but you can't let go of either.
Jon:Yeah. And they're just, like, they're stretching out, like, the stretch toy, whatever. Yeah.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. The the stretch which stretch one are you talking about? Are you talking about the wrestling one?
Jon:I think so. Yeah. It was
Justin Jackson:w w have stretch, wrestlers. Is that what I'm but there's stretch stretch
Jon:Stretch Armstrong. Stretch Armstrong. Stretch Armstrong. Yeah.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So stretch Armstrong, look this up folks, is a large gel filled action figure first introduced in 1976 by Kenner. See, there was Stretch Armstrong, and then WWF came out with the Stretch Wrestlers.
Jon:Okay.
Justin Jackson:But or well, unless Stretch Armstrong was a WWF now. Man, I think we should we just need to start a toy podcast because we've brought up toys a few times. But yeah. Stretched out like Stretch Armstrong.
Jon:Yeah. No. That's a good analogy. I mean, I think in the end, that's certainly what I did. You know?
Jon:Think about it think about it, for a while and, like, probably could have happened earlier. Mhmm. Really? Yeah. But, ultimately, you know, the time was right.
Jon:And Mhmm. It's it's exciting.
Justin Jackson:You you you mentioned earlier that you we we got to a point in transistor faster than you thought we would.
Jon:Yeah. I mean, I I you know, I like, we talked just a couple of shows ago about, you know, our predictions for whatever. How long would it take to get to the revenue we're at now, basically? And it was, like, 5 years as opposed to 1 or one and a half. Yeah.
Jon:And really, I, you know, I didn't didn't expect to be able to do that so soon.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. And in some ways, I think it made it harder because we were going if if we had grown slower, it would have been like, okay. Well, we've got, you know, 10 or 20 customers and this thing just kind of putters along. But when you have 100 of customers that you need to take care of, it really is hard to ignore it because
Jon:It is. Yeah. Yeah. And it got it got to a point and a size where, like, really, I couldn't it just kinda demanded my full attention. Mhmm.
Jon:I think.
Justin Jackson:Yeah.
Jon:And there's a lot you know, like I said, I think before, like, there's lots of things to do. There's lots of things I've started that I have mailed to finish. Mhmm. They're interested in, like, various states of unfinishedness that I'm just catching up on and
Justin Jackson:Mhmm.
Jon:And trying to sort of, you know, pick away at that'll make, you know, things a little bit easier down the road. Yep. But, yeah, it was, it was tough. It was, I'm not I'm not really good at difficult conversations like that. Mhmm.
Jon:Guys certainly avoid, you know, tough, difficult, confrontational conversations, but, in this in this case, like, I really sort of felt like I was letting people down by leaving Mhmm. And, like, leaving something that was sort of, like, unfinished. But people always tell me, like, well, you can't really think about it that way. Like, no one's gonna be mad that you're leaving. And
Justin Jackson:But those feelings are real. I I totally understand that feeling of, you know, they're depending on me. And because we know what it's like when we take a vacation. And, you know, you kind of tell the rest of the team like, okay, you know, you you folks kinda help me, you know, take care of this while I'm gone. And you know that they're gonna have to work a little bit harder when you're not there.
Justin Jackson:Right. And so you kinda feel bad. You're like, oh, shoot. Well, okay. But it's it's only for a couple weeks.
Justin Jackson:But then when you know you're leaving for good, I think you have this feeling of, like, oh, well, then how will they survive without me?
Jon:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:And Right. Of course, they they're people are
Jon:And that and that feeling goes away after a couple days. Yeah. Like, they're fine. It's fine.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. Yeah. And I think I mean, the one good thing about this is that practice of having difficult conversations is something that we just I'm, I'm just like you, like, I am not good at difficult conversations, but lately I've been, whenever one of those comes up, I try to really lean into it and go, okay. Now I'm gonna do it. And just practicing it of saying, I'm going to have the difficult conversation now
Jon:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:Is way better than just saying, you know, putting your head in the door and going, alright. I'm out tomorrow. See you guys.
Jon:Yeah. Yeah. It is. I mean, it's, it's easy to ignore them.
Justin Jackson:It's like my my son we're going on this hiking trip. And my little son, Liam, who's 9 years old, switched to a new school this year. Really hard. You know, it's hard switching schools. And, but he start near the end of the year, he's finally started to get a group of friends that he likes.
Justin Jackson:And he was so excited because one of them invited him to his birthday. But the birthday is while we're on this hiking trip. I was like, well, Liam, you're just gonna have to tell him that we're we already have this trip booked, And so you can't go. And he just did not wanna have that conversation with his friend. Like, for him, that's the end of the world.
Justin Jackson:Right. That is too embarrassing, too awkward, too shameful, too. Like, I'm gonna he he feels like he's letting them down. He feels like he's being mean he feels and, you know, I was encouraging him to say, you know, you can have this conversation, you can go up to your friend and go, I can't come to your party. I really wanted to, but I'm gonna be on vacation.
Justin Jackson:Just thinking about all the stuff you gotta practice, like, you've gotta it takes time to practice that stuff. Right?
Jon:Yeah. Yeah. You gotta yeah. You work up to it. You can psych yourself out pretty easily.
Justin Jackson:Was it hard talking to your team? Because you have people that you actually supervise.
Jon:Yeah. It was. I mean, you know, I think you can always sort of think about worst case scenarios and, like, people are gonna be like, wow. Rob, man. I'm so mad at you and, like, you can't do this.
Jon:You can't leave. None of that. Yeah.
Justin Jackson:None of
Jon:that happened. None of that happened, but it was still hard. I mean, it was you know, I had to sort of, like, set a meeting that was, like, this weird ambiguous title and be like, product product meeting about some product stuff. And they'd just be like, I have an announcement. I'm leaving.
Jon:And then, you know, people were at sort of various states of, like, surprised or just, like, shocked or, like
Justin Jackson:Yeah.
Jon:You know, happy for me, but also, like, woah. That's kinda big.
Justin Jackson:Yeah.
Jon:And, you know, some amount of, like, worry about, like, what's gonna happen and this and that. But, you know, I think ultimately everyone was everybody was good about it, and supportive and, like, kind of they understand. So I think, you know, if given the same opportunity or be in the same position, I think, you know, they would do the same thing and have the same support.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. Totally.
Jon:So, you know, you know, left on good good terms. I think welcome back in the office, you know, to to work or to record. You know, they have recording studios and stuff like that. So
Justin Jackson:Yeah. And, honestly, without them, like, you wouldn't have been inspired to build Transistor in the 1st place.
Jon:That's true. They yeah. It was a big that was a big motivating factor, and, like, I can't forget that. Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. And yeah. Certainly, we've benefited, like, a lot of our early customers came from
Jon:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:Kind of the friends of cards network. You know, there's a lot of people there that are creative and are making shows.
Jon:Yeah. Yeah. And then that's you know, there's still that I still have that network. I think there's probably an opportunity to get maybe some more of those people on board now that I'm now that I kinda don't feel like I'm crossing streams, I guess, or whatever. Like
Justin Jackson:Yeah. There's no conflict of interest there.
Jon:Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So I think I've I've sort of avoided talking to some people who have podcasts who are not using transistor.
Jon:And, like, I don't wanna pester people, but I don't wanna be like, well, since I'm here and you're here, let's get you on board.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. Totally. Totally.
Jon:So
Justin Jackson:Well, congrats, man. I this is this is a big big step.
Jon:It is. Yeah. So what I mean, you know, I we've obviously talked a lot about it, but, like, what is, like, what do you what do you think what do you think it'll mean for the the company? What, like, what benefits or, like, I don't know, things to watch out for?
Justin Jackson:I can't wait to answer that question after this ad from Redash. Yes, folks. Redash.io. I hope you've been checking them out because you can get 50% off for the first 3 months by just mentioning that you came through Build Your SaaS. It's a tool that allows you to supercharge your SQL skills.
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Justin Jackson:I use that. It's like one of those tools that's like a a best kind of best in class tool for folks that, use SQL. So go check it out, redash.io, and let them know, hey, build your SaaS, the podcast they sent me, and you'll get 50% off for your 1st 3 months. I think one thing that is always kinda strange to think about is people dream. And I I have dreamt of running my own business for a long time.
Justin Jackson:And I've run different types of businesses along the way. And then, you know, this dream of transistor came along. And at the beginning, you're like, you're both hopeful, but you're also you don't know if anything's gonna happen. And so it's very surreal getting to the point where you go, Woah, this is this is a thing. Like, now John's quitting his job.
Justin Jackson:We're partnered on this. We're running we're running this thing.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:Oh, wow. And I think there's on one hand, I want to just be like, it's not a big deal. Like, this is just what we're doing. And we're just gonna do our the best we can and we're going to enjoy the ride. But on the other hand, there is kind of all these emotions of, I can't believe we're here.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. So I think that's part like, every time something new happens, like, every time we hit a new milestone, it's kind of like, oh, well, now John's quitting his job. Well, I guess we're here now. Aren't we?
Jon:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. So yeah. It's catching up emotionally. Honestly, it's one of the benefits of doing this podcast. I was trying to tell folks at this conference I was just at.
Justin Jackson:Like, I said, even if nobody was listening, I would still wanna do this show with John because it's almost there's something about the microphones and recording this and the weekly time slot and the fact that we have to do it. You know, we're having a real conversation, but it's also there's an element of performance in it that's strangely healthy because, you know, we have to talk about real stuff. Sometimes it feels like in this context, I can bring up hard stuff that I wouldn't be able to bring up if there was no microphones. Does that make sense?
Jon:It's true. Yeah. And I yeah. I would agree with that. I don't really know why that is.
Justin Jackson:There's we gotta come up with a therapy name for this. Like, there's some sort of there's something about this. Have you had a time to think about it? What what are you thinking your weeks are gonna look like now?
Jon:I mean, it's gonna be it's gonna it's gonna be, well, it'd be a lot different. I mean, you know, it it's gonna be, I think, tricky to balance things out. I it's been a while since I've been in this spot. Mhmm. I think there's gonna be a pretty good mix of, like, really heads down product work and building building features, which obviously I've, you know, been doing, but it's it's sporadic.
Jon:Mhmm. But I think I think the biggest change is just gonna be, like, the amount of time I don't have now to just, like, think Mhmm. About stuff. Like and, you know, I think we've talked in the past about the time constraints we have because we're not doing this full full time Mhmm. And how it's actually been pretty beneficial.
Jon:Mhmm. So I I I don't really know how that's gonna affect things. I mean, it I personally haven't had a lot of time to just be, like, really, like, big pie in the sky sort of, like, brainstorming Yeah. For a while. Yeah.
Jon:And I and I miss that.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. There's a weird thing that we've mentioned this before, but, like, before you launch, it's, like, everything is a dream.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:And you're just dreaming about what you can build, and you you're getting to think about it at all, and you're gonna oh, we're gonna add this. And then but then you launch, and then it's like, you're just bailing water. You know?
Jon:Right. Yeah. And there's, you know, there's so many things we wanna build and we have in our in in clubhouse that we wanna build and work on that it would be easy to say, I'm just gonna code for 40 hours a week Yeah. Every day for, like, 8 hours straight or whatever. But, I mean, that's not really doable or healthy, I don't think.
Justin Jackson:Yeah.
Jon:I don't think that's I mean, that's not what I wanna do, really. It's like I mean, you could think of it as, like, well, if I'm not coding, I'm wasting time, but really, it's not at all. It's just part of the whole process of planning a thing. And
Justin Jackson:I would say that's part of the culture we're developing is Yeah.
Jon:That
Justin Jackson:because we seem to be in alignment on that. Like, in in in some ways, I think it's because of the constraints we had. I think it's also partly because you're just naturally more thoughtful and, you think through things more than I might naturally. And now I've been able to see the benefit of some of that, of of just this. And and clearly, there's a threshold here.
Justin Jackson:But I wanna explore this one side first, which is, you know, the idea that we would just grind and hustle and, like, make it happen and just be kind of on the hamster wheel. Come on. Go. Go. Go.
Justin Jackson:I I don't think that's beneficial for products. I think Yeah. Products benefit from thoughtfulness. And
Jon:Exactly.
Justin Jackson:We've almost developed this philosophy of wait and see that I found I have found really interesting as a product person. Where, you know, you get 20 people requesting the same thing, and you're like, okay. We should build it. But then you just wait a little bit longer, and then more kind of details emerge. And then you wait a little bit longer.
Justin Jackson:And clearly, there's a threshold. You can't ex just do that exploration stage forever.
Jon:Right.
Justin Jackson:But in terms of, like, having a chance to think and get your bearings and look at it for and almost turn away on it in the back of your mind and then execute on it if you feel like it's the best course of action. I think that's a huge benefit.
Jon:Yeah. I think so too. I mean, I I think there's been a number of times where we well, where we have or where we could have just jumped on a thing and built it quickly. The waiting period I mean, you may end up not building it, or you're gonna end up building it entirely differently.
Justin Jackson:So the example I sent you today is when you wait and see, we got this email today from, like an ad tech company about all the features they would want. And almost like all of the due diligence they would wanna do Mhmm. If they were gonna go with us. And this was really around dynamic ads. Yeah.
Justin Jackson:And I sent it to you, and I said, like, do we do we want more of this?
Jon:Yeah. It was a really, like, detailed explanation of what they need and a lot of stuff that we don't have or we'd have to add or change, and it would be so much work to give them what they needed.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. And, you know, so that's been interesting as we weigh, you know, because it's almost like you open up. Once you open I don't know what the the the saying is. But, like, once you open something up, it's hard
Jon:put the lid back on. Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:And so it's like being very conscientious and careful about what what things we open up, because then it's like, okay, that well, that the cats out of the bag now. Like, we can't, we can't, I guess we can't put that cat back in the bag. Yeah. And on the flip side, you know, I was thinking about something that initially I was really kinda hesitant about, which is private podcasts, like adding more features to private podcasts.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:And you've been kind of pushing me and going, hey, well, what about this? And the more I've thought about that, I've been like, man, there is because at at first, I just saw only 2 possibilities, like this enterprise solution or this kind of low end solution we have right now. But now that I've got all of this customer
Jon:Right.
Justin Jackson:Experience, I can see that there's this middle option. And I've actually been able to talk to people about it, like, you know, what exactly do you want? How are you solving this problem right now? How have you solved this problem in the past? What else have you used to do this?
Justin Jackson:And I have a way better sense of where people are at. And now I could see this middle road we could take with private podcasting. That'd be really interesting.
Jon:Yeah. I think that's a definitely a good example of the kinda wait and see. Because, yeah, we, you know, we we get requests for different, like, private podcast features all the time. And, like, I know you follow-up a lot of times, and you're like, you know, what are you actually looking to get out of this? Which, you know, generally, we get good feedback and just sort of adds to the the inputs that we can use to kind of kind of think about, like, how do you how can we build something that, like, solves 80% of these problems?
Jon:Or or just maybe maybe, you know, if once we have time to think about it, it triggers something entirely new that you're like, you just didn't think about before. You're like, oh, wait.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. Yeah.
Jon:This one thing this one thing might be possible because of this other thing that it was, like, you think was unrelated.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes you just need to turn away at that stuff. Again, you we couldn't wait and see forever. Eventually, you do have to act.
Justin Jackson:Like, I feel like that with the marketing side now. Like, I just feel like we've done enough waiting. We just gotta get something up. And it won't be perfect at first, but I I just wanna clear that off my plate. I feel like
Jon:Right.
Justin Jackson:The exploration phase is done. Yeah. But the but there are features, like, even getting the some of this, like, you ask them. Okay. Well, you know, what does that actually look like for you?
Justin Jackson:And then you get to decide, do we even want that business?
Jon:Right.
Justin Jackson:And I've appreciated, I think, this perspective you and I have brought. And I don't know if it's because we're older, or just because we've been lucky enough to get have enough business that we feel like we can do this. But, you know, there's definitely been some customers that are in the past, I would have been I would have been so desperate. You know, like, can we pay by check? Mhmm.
Justin Jackson:And these days, I'm just like, no. That that would add so much work to us. Like, what would that mean? It's almost like if we say we're gonna accept checks, it means we have to hire another person. And we had a one of our agencies asked us about this.
Justin Jackson:They said, you know, we have a client that wants to pay by check, wants to pay you folks by check. And, I said, well, maybe you should you folks should just charge them by check, and then you can, you know, you can use your credit card with us. And they're like, yeah. We don't really wanna do that because it'll add too much.
Jon:Yeah. Exactly. Right. I'm like,
Justin Jackson:okay. Well Yeah. Neither do we. It it it just it's helpful to feel that stuff out.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:And and to be mindful about all of this.
Jon:Kind of related to that. And and I guess the marketing side and just sort of like what did you say? The exploration phase of that. Mhmm. Like, that that's a thing that I have had almost no time to really take on and dive in.
Jon:It's like an exploration phase into even, like, a new technology. Mhmm. Doing the same thing I've been doing for years and, like, haven't really had the opportunity to just, like, sit back and, like, learn something new for a couple days straight and, like, dive into documentation. Just be like, you know, this this tool might be useful for us. Let's, like, really, like, kick the tires and try it out.
Jon:Mhmm. So I'm really looking forward to that. And those are gonna be the days where, like, you know, I probably answer support emails in the morning and just, like, not actually working on the product, but I'm working on something that will benefit the product.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. I mean, honestly, that's a lot of my day.
Jon:Right. Yeah. And it's that sounds great.
Justin Jackson:Like, I say that, you know, when people ask me, I say, well, I work. I spend about 80% of my time focused on transistor. But honestly, if you look like, here's my day. I bike down to my office, park my bike, go to the coffee shop, have some conversations there, you know, meet up with some people. I'm usually at my desk around 9:30.
Justin Jackson:Answer support email, which can take, I mean, if it's a busy day, that can take 9:30 till noon can be support. But if it's not a busy day, you know, I might be done a bit earlier. And then the afternoon is almost always, okay, what's something creative I can do to drive things forward?
Jon:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:But it's not in a in a way of, you know, like, if you're working for a big corporation and you gotta have something on your screen that makes it look like you're working or something, it's in the way of, like, I'm gonna go live right now and just ask somebody to explain Vue dot JS to me. And then I might do a 2 hour live stream and then be like, okay. Wow. Okay. I I really figured some stuff out.
Justin Jackson:And that might be my whole day. And then, like, answer more support email in the afternoon, and go home.
Jon:That yeah. And that stuff, you know, those those expiration live streams you do, like, this you know, they plant the seeds or whatever, lay the ground or whatever metaphor you wanna use for stuff down the road that you don't even know is coming.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. Well and sometimes yeah. Like, sometimes it's exploration or sometimes it's actual execution.
Jon:Right.
Justin Jackson:And I think the point is, is that I've really liked this cadence of having both in my life. And it just feels mindful. It feels like having the freedom to read a book on design thinking and think that was time well spent.
Jon:Yeah. And I used to do that. Mhmm. And it's been a while
Justin Jackson:Yeah.
Jon:Since I've been able to.
Justin Jackson:I'm excited because I think for definitely for product people, I think our ability to be mindful, our ability to slow things down and have space where we think of nothing, have space where we are researching, you know, maybe it's just spending all day looking at, like, Japanese architecture. Yeah. And Yeah. I think we've we've been fooled by, honestly, by, like, rigid industrial complex systems that say, like, no, you gotta be at your workstation. But we're creative.
Justin Jackson:Like, this whole economy is creative now. And how are you gonna get a good idea? How are you gonna have an interesting thought? How are you going to connect disparate findings if you're not giving yourself space?
Jon:Right. I think that's definitely super important.
Justin Jackson:So I'm I'm excited for you to figure out your cadence. I think
Jon:Yeah. Yeah. Me too.
Justin Jackson:We've already got experience with working the way we work right now. I think one thing that'll be interesting is because like the immediate thought is I have is could we work together better? I don't know exactly what that means.
Jon:I don't either. I mean, we'll certainly have the opportunity now to, like like, live code together or whatever. Mhmm. Or just, like, I you know, I'm sure there's a lot of apps on where you could, like, you know, sketch stuff out online and just, like Yeah. Plan things that way.
Jon:I mean, we don't we don't really have any planning meetings. Like, we don't do calls for that. I mean, we did we did plan out a big feature in Portland that we still haven't built, and that was that was good. It would but that was the one time we've done that in recent memory. Otherwise, it's just like you lay some some bullet points on a on a list and, like, you kinda go for it.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. I think having eventually, having some sort of sense of, like, 6 week iterations or and we tried that before, but it was just really hard while you were working full time.
Jon:Yeah. I don't we didn't really stick to it.
Justin Jackson:And honestly, I think it it will take some training because, you know, I'm I'm very right now, I'm used to just kinda, like, getting up and then, you know, thinking about, okay, what am I gonna do today? Which is a good way of working, I think. But on the other hand, it's nice to also have a general direction where you're steering the ship.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. I think that'll be kind of the next thing that that we have to figure out.
Jon:For me personally, as I sort of figure out, like, you know, where I'm working, potentially who I'm working with. Mhmm. You
Justin Jackson:mean, like, co like, in a coworking place or
Jon:something? Yeah. Yeah. Coworking. Like, you know, the thing that I've left behind at cards and black box is, like, a team of people who are a lot smarter than me in certain areas.
Justin Jackson:Yeah.
Jon:So I I, you know, I lose that direct, like, immediate access to these people I can learn from.
Justin Jackson:Yeah.
Jon:And having sort of worked there for that long, I kind of, like, lost touch with that community in Chicago of, like, people Mhmm. Which, you know, I'd sort of now have to, like, work at kind of reestablishing and getting back in touch with some people or, like, finding a community online, but, like, that that's the part of the thing that, like, I need to figure out, you know, pretty quickly, or I'll just become a hermit and never see anyone.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. I would actually love to talk about that next week because I feel like I figured out a really good system that works for me in that area. Uh-huh. And that leverages both local community and online community.
Jon:Yeah. I mean, I I've really largely, like, left the online community as far as, you know, interacting on Twitter or in these other you know, I don't know. There's private private, you know, develop engineering communities and stuff like that. But Mhmm. Yeah.
Jon:It's a thing that I'll probably slowly get back into.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. I'm just making a note. How to work independently
Jon:Yeah. Without going insane.
Justin Jackson:Without going insane. Oh, yeah. See, we're writing great headlines. Well, I think we should button this one up. Again, yeah, this is big news for us.
Jon:Yeah. It's exciting. It's, yeah, big for us. It's a huge huge change for me.
Justin Jackson:We should, just because I know sometimes they listen, we should let your parents know that, you know, we we are gonna pay you some.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:That John will be okay.
Jon:I'll be alright.
Justin Jackson:Though your mom could still send you, like, lasagna or something. That wouldn't Yeah. You wouldn't you wouldn't be opposed to that.
Jon:Not at all. Nope.
Justin Jackson:Let's, let's give our patrons a shout out.
Jon:Who
Justin Jackson:do we have to thank this month?
Jon:We have a lot of good people. So, yeah, thanks to everyone for supporting the show and making it possible. We have Colin Gray, from Alitu. Right? Alitu dotcom?
Justin Jackson:Alitu dotcom. Yeah.
Jon:Yeah. Josh Smith, Ivan Kerkovic, Brian Ray, Miguel Pedarafita.
Justin Jackson:By the way, I butchered that name last time. I try
Jon:I I Oh, no. Right?
Justin Jackson:Tried it, like, 4 times. I was really missing you. And I like Miguel. Miguel's a good Yeah. I know him from online, but I cannot say his last name.
Jon:Austin Loveless, Simon Bennett, Corey Hanes, Michael Sitfer, Paul Jarvis, and Jack Ellis, Dan Buddha, my brother.
Justin Jackson:Danbudda.com. Oh, yeah. We're doing, we're crowdsourcing what kind of podcast Dan should start.
Jon:Okay.
Justin Jackson:I said he should do I don't know why. I said he should do one on the Muppets.
Jon:He does like the Muppets. Oh, that was a good
Justin Jackson:It's just a good guess.
Jon:Good guess. Yeah.
Justin Jackson:Okay. He
Jon:could probably do that.
Justin Jackson:Well, Dan hey, Dan. If you decide to start a podcast, we will give you a free account so you know who to contact.
Jon:Any Muppets, Muppet, or something Legos or whatever related podcast.
Justin Jackson:Yeah. I mean, I would listen to a Good Muppet podcast.
Jon:Yeah. I don't know if there are any. I it's There probably are.
Justin Jackson:You could do you could do, like, a deep dive on Fraggle Rock.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin Jackson:Like, there's a lot of opportunities there.
Jon:History of puppetry podcast.
Justin Jackson:The the history of Muppetry. Yeah.
Jon:Yeah. Darby Frey, Samori Augusto, Dave Young, Brad from Canada, Kevin Markham, Sammy Schuichert, Dan Erickson, Mike Walker, Adam Devander, Dave Junta.
Justin Jackson:Junta. It was also sad that I had to say Dave Junta by myself, and it was just kinda sad.
Jon:Didn't have the same effect.
Justin Jackson:No. The joy of the Junta is having someone else say it, and then you repeat it.
Jon:Okay. Kyle Fox, from get rewardful.com, and our sponsors for the week, ProfitWell and Redash.
Justin Jackson:Thanks so much for listening, folks. Last week, I got a lot of replies from people who listened all the way to the end. If you're listening to this right now, just tweet us and let us know where you're listening from. Maybe a few thoughts about the episode. Love hearing those.
Justin Jackson:You will hear us
Gavin:next week.
