How we're Shaping Up
This podcast is brought to you by profitwell.com. Patrick Campbell of ProfitWell and Heaton Shaw have a new podcast that you should definitely check out. It's called Product Trade Offs, product trade offs.com. And, it's them talking through all sorts of interesting things. They just did a a tear down of Netflix's business model.
Justin:Definitely worth checking out. That is Product Trade Offs. Search for it in your podcast player.
Jon:Hey, everyone. Welcome to build your SaaS. This is the behind the scenes story of building a web app in 2019. I'm John Buda, a software engineer.
Justin:And I'm Justin Jackson. I do product and marketing. Follow along as we build transistor Alright. So, John, you're hiding in
Jon:a closet somewhere. I'm in a closet.
Justin:Because you've you've you've got construction work going.
Jon:Yeah. There's a bunch of loud noises happening.
Justin:I I can't actually hear anything right now. So maybe
Jon:Maybe they're maybe they're taking a smoke break. I don't know.
Justin:Man, maybe you're insulated.
Jon:I can't see anything because I'm in a closet. So
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. Actually, that does see, I've got this nice window I'm looking out right now. Oh, it's close.
Jon:You're probably looking at mountains and.
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. Looking at the mountains. But I wonder if that if that changes. You know how, like, Facebook put in, like, those negative things in people's timelines and it made them more depressed?
Justin:I wonder if the one of the podcast hosts is hiding in a closet, if that affects the emotional resonance of the show.
Jon:I don't know. I thought I thought the depressive effects of Facebook was just Facebook.
Justin:Just on its own.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:You don't need anything anything extra. No. Yeah. You know, Facebook is interesting. I I still have an account, but I only log in to, like, just see, like, okay.
Justin:Is, you know I don't know. Actually, I just basically log in, take a look around, and leave. It's it's kind of like going to I don't know. Yeah. It it's weird.
Justin:Very few people post anything anymore.
Jon:Right.
Justin:At least in my friend group, people have definitely a lot of folks have moved on. It's kind of, like, just a place to go and get notifications and maybe see what events are coming up. Right.
Jon:Yeah. Yeah. I don't I haven't used it in years.
Justin:Yeah. Yeah. It's that that whole transformation is is odd. I'm sure in a certain demographic, it's still quite popular. Right.
Justin:But yeah. Well, we had a lot of feedback on the last show with Jason Fried.
Jon:We did.
Justin:If folks if folks haven't heard it, go to sass.transistor.fm/70. Yeah. Have you had any thoughts since then? Any anything that's come up since we talked to him?
Jon:Well, we've we had a shaping meeting, which we'll talk about, next.
Justin:Mhmm.
Gavin:I mean, I think I guess the one thing
Jon:that did I I have sort of just been ignoring our backlog. Right? I mean, it Mhmm. I don't want to abandon it because there are good ideas there. I think we just need to, like, pull those out into the, like, maybe we'll shape next bucket or some I don't know.
Jon:Like
Justin:Mhmm.
Jon:Mhmm. But there are definitely things we can just ignore.
Justin:I think so the the feedback we got from that episode was interesting because there were certainly a lot of folks. I mean, the the the video clips of that episode and then the full show combined, I got more feedback on Twitter, email, Slack, forums, Reddit than anything else I've I've I've ever gotten.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:1 a popular reaction is this kind of visceral, you know, base camp is a cult, kind of reaction.
Jon:Yeah. Right. Like, don't, you know, don't drink the Kool Aid.
Justin:I I totally get it. Like, they speak very strongly about things, And I think it's hard to have a point of view and not create a group or or or create a reaction that is not the opposite of that. Right?
Jon:Yeah. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I think if you if you if you talk about something and have an opinion about something and don't get any reaction one way or the other, then, like, no one's listening anyway. So
Justin:Yes. Yeah. And, actually, that's a good I think so much of especially for those that are listening that are doing podcasts or blogging or anything, so much of the stuff out there is so banal. Like, if you're just always kinda advocating for the the status quo or you're always advocating for not rocking the boat too much Mhmm. I think it is harder to stand out.
Justin:Now I don't actually think despite what people say, I don't think base camp does this just to get attention.
Jon:No. No. I don't think I think they really truly believe it.
Justin:Yeah. And, I've I've actually experienced this myself. When when I wrote I wrote a post called the niche the myth of the niche market. And some of the criticism I got was, oh, Justin is just doing this for clicks. And, you know, I spent, like, years thinking about that problem.
Justin:I spent months researching that blog post, and then I wrote it because I felt deeply about it. And so I think sometimes, like, sure, some people do things for the clicks, but, that's kind of, just that reaction alone. Like, well, they're just doing this to get attention. I it doesn't always hold water. And in this case, I don't think it does.
Justin:Right.
Jon:Right.
Justin:I think they've found something that really works for them. And the you know, I I went in and I all of my backlog, things in Clubhouse, I just highlighted them all, and I put them all in this ideas bucket Okay.
Jon:That
Justin:kinda makes everything disappear from my dashboard. Mhmm. And I have to say, it was really nice because then all that was left were these 3 projects that I needed to work on right now. And Sorry. I just got distracted.
Justin:And there was something powerful about that. Like, I had things that were hanging around for months that I just wasn't going to do, that were fine ideas, but they've just been sticking around for so long. And that thing that Jason said about about your backlog growing stale
Jon:Mhmm.
Justin:That really kind of became true for me. I I was like, he's totally right. Like, these things that were good ideas 3 months ago, they're just not good ideas anymore.
Jon:Right. And they and they might have been added as an idea in our backlog, log, like, as you had the thought, not not after some meaningful, like, long process of thought.
Justin:Yes. And and, actually, I think this came up in our first shaping call, which we can talk about in a bit. But the this idea of this was the first time well, not the first time, but this was a very kind of focused time for us to process together what had maybe been roiling around in our subconscious or things that we had been thinking about for a long time. Sorry. You're gonna say something?
Jon:No. Yeah. I it I you you might be going in the same direction I am what I'm thinking about.
Justin:Well, I I would love for you to complete my sentence right now. That that'd be super, I was gonna say romantic. Yeah. If you're the kind of cofounder that completes my sentences, isn't that the
Jon:Oh, right. I don't know if I'll complete your sentence, but I had I have a feeling you were you were going towards our brain dump section.
Justin:Mhmm.
Jon:And the fact that we just started took maybe a minute or less to list off, like, 7, 6, 7 things. Like, the first thing is that came to our mind about, like, what a brain dump of of potential ideas that we should shape next. And we both just, like, came up with this list fairly quickly, and I think that that list is just is like a distilled down list of the things that both of us have just been thinking about, not necessarily looking at a list and coming up and bringing these ideas back, but, like, this is what's on our mind.
Justin:Yeah. And this is what's on our mind right now, which I think is also important because it's already one of the ideas on that list, dynamic content, I think has grown stale. Like, it was something that we were really excited about, you know, 3, 6 months ago. Yeah. And because business changes I'll I'll give you an example of how that changed.
Justin:One of the things that was motivating us to build that is we had 2 or 3 customers that switched to a competitor because they had dynamic ads. And, you know, when that happened, I think it made us feel like, wow, we gotta do something about this. Because this is the first time people have switched away from our product.
Jon:Right.
Justin:Well, you know, I've talked to, at least 2 of those customers that switched. And one just switched back to us, which was amazing. He came back and he said, you know, I I just didn't use that dynamic ads feature as much as I thought I would. Uh-huh. What Jason said when he said, you know, like, business your business is always moving and think context is always changing.
Justin:So this this idea that we would have this sunk cost around, well, we went to Portland, and we did all that planning. And we can't just throw that away. In some ways, it's ridiculous. Like, well yeah. But if that's not the most important thing right now
Jon:Mhmm.
Justin:Why would we keep that around?
Jon:Right.
Justin:Like, why would we allow that to weigh us down? And so much of this, you learn as you wait. Right? Like, if you feel like you don't if there's a project that feels so big and complicated, and you're like, okay. How are we ever gonna tackle this?
Justin:And, man, this is a big one. And then you wait, and then that big important project that you thought was so important becomes less important. There's something about that that's especially for a small team that just seems so helpful.
Jon:It's almost like a relief.
Justin:Mhmm.
Jon:But and that's not to say that that we didn't come up with good ideas and and, like, I think there's probably some things we could pull out of that document that we made eventually if we wanna go back to it at some point and maybe and maybe even simplify the dynamic content idea down. Like, we we could, you know, have a shaping call and and talk about this idea again, but, like, really slim it down to something. Because we went we went pretty wild with that idea and, like, thought about, like, all the possible things we could do which
Justin:Which is fine too. Like, I think that's part of shaping is sometimes just brainstorming things. But eventually at the end of the shaping call, you want to have this, like, this, this the contours of an actionable thing that you could actually, have some sort of appetite to build over, you know, 2 to 6 weeks.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:And And even at, like, after like, from the sounds of it, base camp is constantly shaping. Like, it sounds like sometimes they'll just hop on a call. And say, hey, let's talk about this idea. And then, you know, process that together. And eventually, they have this idea of the betting table, which is okay.
Justin:What do we actually wanna bet on? You know, we've got all of these things that we've talked about and that we've shaped. But what do we actually have the appetite for?
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:I think that part's interesting. This idea that, yeah, you can come up with lots of great ideas. But what what is so compelling that you're willing to say, yes. This is what we're gonna do.
Jon:Yeah. And I think, figure that out. I I would say, at least for what we're gonna work on next, I still think we we don't necessarily, as a as a 2 person team, know how we're gonna schedule these things out Mhmm. Exactly, or, like, when does, you know, when does a when does a cycle start? When does it end?
Jon:Like
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:How are we actually scheduling these these things out?
Justin:Yeah. One part we got stuck, which I think I I think we know the answer to this, but it'd be interesting to get, Basecamp's, answer to this. Is, you know, you and I start working on shaping an idea, specifically around private podcasts. And so we're working on it. And at one point you were like, you know, I was like, okay.
Justin:I think we're done now. I think we could talk about whether we wanna do this in an upcoming cycle. And you're like, well, wait a second. We don't but we don't it's still not we don't have super detailed specs yet. Is it am I getting that right?
Jon:Yeah. I think that was it. Or at least we hadn't we hadn't sketched anything out. Like, I wouldn't I wouldn't have known where to start necessarily yet.
Justin:Mhmm.
Jon:But but I think we both came to the conclusion that, like, that's okay. Like Mhmm. I think by the time we ended our call and actually had a couple sketches, like, there was a good starting point, and the the details were to be figured out during the cycle.
Justin:That's right. That that's that was our question, which was when you start a cycle, are you is everything kind of like specked out by that point? And I think the the way they do it is they've got, like, work that's been shaped in the sense of we know what the problem is. We know kind of the contours of what this would look like. We've got some fat marker sketches.
Justin:But we then hand that off to the team, and then the team starts working on all of these unknowns. And that's like working up the hill in their hill chart. Right? We're working up the hill. We don't know.
Justin:There's still lots of unknowns, but we're solving the unknowns. We're trying mock ups. We're, you know, we're making more detailed HTML, prototypes. And then you reach the top of the hill metaphorically. And then you're like, okay.
Justin:We've actually solved all the unknowns now. Now we just have to execute on everything we figured out. And then the end of the hill is is that so I think that's I think that's the way they do it. Yeah. Could be.
Justin:Well, what We'll we'll have to we'll have to see if, if we're right on that. We I still haven't read the whole book. I've I've read pieces of it. So I think I I also just need to, like, give this thing a good read from top top to bottom. Have you have you read the whole thing yet?
Jon:I have not. I've gotten pretty far, but I I was really interested to hear that they're gonna keep updating it. Like, they I think one of the biggest questions I had and a lot of people still have is, like, how do you deal with bug fixes, and how do you deal with, like, testing and stuff like that, and they're actually gonna cover that. They're gonna up they're gonna add a chapter about, how they do QA and how they do bug fixes.
Justin:Yes. Yeah. I actually think I saw, I saw the update on that. I think it's already
Jon:Oh, nice.
Justin:So yeah. They're they are answering questions. I'll try to put that in the show notes as well. So let's actually talk about how we structured that call. But before we do, I want to thank our sponsor, ActiveCampaign.
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Justin:There's, certain thing certain emails we need to send out that I think this might be good for. So thanks to ActiveCampaign. Yeah. So let's talk about how we structured our meeting. We I took this from the shape up book.
Justin:Basically, we focused on the problem. Like, what's the raw idea, use case, something that we've seen our customer is struggling with that motivates us to work on this? Then there's appetite. How much time do we wanna spend and how that constrains the solution? And then the solution, which is what are the core elements presented in a form that's easy for people to immediately understand?
Justin:So for us, it was kind of bullet points and some rough sketches.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:Then rabbit holes. So what are some details about the solution we came up with that are worth calling out to avoid problems. Like, oh, if you go down this direction, that's gonna waste a bunch of time. So don't even worry about that. Like, don't go there.
Justin:Oh, but then there's also no goes, which is anything specifically excluded from the concept. So functionality or use cases we intentionally aren't covering to fit the appetite or make the problem tractable. And I felt like that was a pretty good way, especially for our first call, to go through things. Because it gave us a framework of, like, okay, Let's talk about this. And then we would start going one way, and we'd be like, oh, well, that's just really a rabbit hole.
Justin:Let's just write that down.
Jon:Mhmm. Yeah. We didn't really I mean, it was still a little bit of a free form discussion, but we came away with some good feel like we came away with a pretty good document.
Justin:I think the other thing that was interesting is at the end of it, we had to have this conversation of, like because you can get to the end of a a call like that and be like, okay. Well, when do we wanna do this? Do we wanna do this right away? And, one thing that I felt that I haven't actually felt in the past is, wait a second. What's realistic?
Justin:Because in the past, I would have always been like, well, let's just start right now. I'm a I'm a real quick start kinda guy. Like, I just like No. Me too.
Jon:My my engineering brain is like, I know how to do this. Let's do it right now.
Justin:Yeah. But But I think, again, part of my understanding of the base camp way, quote, unquote, is that they're just really thoughtful. And being thoughtful means that you don't always act on things right away. Like, sometimes it's okay to have, hey, we had a good phone call on that. Let's just let that sit and simmer for a bit longer.
Justin:And I can remember being in teams where there's so much pressure to keep everyone busy that there's very little time to just pause and let things simmer. It's like, okay. What are we working on next? And so we'll have a meeting and go, okay. Well, let's, pick this, this, and this.
Justin:K. Let's write up the stories, have that done by Monday. Great. KC folks, you know, it's like this constant treadmill where you're always just acting and never thinking.
Jon:Right. Yeah. There's I yeah. I've definitely been in situations where there was no there was, yeah, there was no downtime or, I guess, whatever, however Jason described it. Like, a cool down period.
Jon:Right? After after a 6 week cycle, there's no just like, alright. Let's let it sink in and kind of, like, you know, yeah, take a break from building something.
Justin:Yeah. I mean, well, linearly, they have this idea of a cool down period that happens after a cycle. But I'm also just talking about outside of, like, in a nonlinear way. I don't think they're sorry. I think they're just they're just a lot more nonlinear than we think they are.
Justin:Like, in a traditional team, it's always very, like, sequential. Like, okay, we're gonna have our brainstorming meeting. And And out of the brainstorming meeting, we will have our, you know, focuses for the next quarter. And then we'll put those in to our project management software, and then we'll implement them in Q2. Where I think it's a lot more free form with them where they're like, okay.
Justin:Well, let's talk about this concept. Oh, that's interesting. Okay. Let's put that on the shelf. Okay.
Justin:Let's talk about this concept. And then when they do come to the betting table, which is, okay, we need something to work on this next cycle. What are we gonna work on? They have a lot a bunch of these kind of concepts that they've been forming over months or years or whatever. There's never this idea that, like, well, we just had a meeting, so, therefore, we need to schedule some action steps after this.
Justin:Does that make sense?
Jon:Right. Yeah.
Justin:So, anyway, we ended our our conversation about this feature. And, you know, both of you and I are kinda like, okay. What's the next thing we're gonna work on? You're, you know, you're full time on transistor now. I'm full time on transistor.
Justin:It's like, okay. We wanna sink our teeth into something. And we also want to kind of do this in public and test out some of these base camp ideas, in a really kinda honest way. Like, okay. We're gonna try this, and we're not beholden to them.
Justin:Like, we can tell you how this is gonna work out. And one of the interesting things was getting to end that call and going, okay, well, I think we both have an appetite for this. Like, this seems to be something worth working on, and it feels like we could fit this into a 6 week cycle. When do we wanna start on it? And I was looking at my August, and I'm like, you know, to be honest, I I don't really have the appetite to work on this in August.
Jon:Yeah. Me I mean, me either. I could start it, but there would be, like, a week break in there because I'm doing this, triathlon in Michigan.
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:And
Justin:But we we've never had a we've never kinda stopped like that before, I didn't think, and and thought about it.
Jon:No. We haven't. And it's not to say we're not gonna work on anything because we do still have we still do have we have other things we're working on that aren't they're not 6 week they're not 6 week projects at all. Right? They're just like Yeah.
Jon:You know, a handful of little things here and there, like, redoing some the marketing site and Yeah. But, again, bug fixes and just, like, small improvements, but it's not we don't really have a 6 week period from, like, now until 6 weeks from now where we could focus on something.
Justin:Yeah. And I wonder how many times because we're so like, our work culture in general is so addicted to just completing tasks. Like, that's how that's what productivity is supposed to feel like is okay. Like, no downtime. Like, we gotta keep these developers busy.
Justin:They're expensive. So, Justin, it's your job as product manager to, like, keep the pipeline full. And so, therefore, like, as product manager, all I did was I'm constantly writing new stories so that if a developer gets bored or has some needs to work on something, there's a big list of things they can pick off. But, actually, looking at the other side of that and going, wait a second, August. It's summertime.
Justin:You know, I've got family visiting. You're doing this big triathlon. I'm going you know, we're gonna be doing another family trip at the end of August. Do we have the appetite for this right now? And saying, well, no.
Justin:That this isn't right. So why don't we look at this? I think we scheduled it for, like, why don't and this isn't even, you know, in stone yet. But we said, okay. Well, maybe, I can't remember.
Justin:Maybe it was, like, 10th or something.
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:We we said, let's let's look at starting this, you know, on 10th, and that will be the start of our 6 week cycle. Yeah. I think and, also, we're still learning. We're trying to, like, apply these concepts that we've never applied before. And so now we have a month to we we've scheduled a shaping call for every Tuesday.
Justin:Yeah.
Jon:We're still gonna be shaping this thing, I think. I mean Mhmm. We're not done we're not done with this feature yet.
Justin:Yeah. Shaping. And so, and we're also just thinking about what's that going to look like? Like, if we start a cycle, you know, I think in the old world that would just look like, no, this has to be completely specked out so that John knows what where to take it when he starts the project. But Basecamp is a much more team based approach where it's like, no.
Justin:In in their their way is to say who's working on this? And if if you and I are the only people on the team, like, remember when he said there's no handoffs
Jon:Right.
Justin:At base camp?
Jon:Yeah.
Justin:And I it kind of, like, jolted me a little bit because my whole professional life, that's how things work. It's a it's, what do you call that that Henry Ford invite invented?
Jon:A car?
Gavin:No. Assembly line.
Jon:Oh. Sorry. I didn't know I didn't know where you were going with that.
Gavin:We gotta leave that in, Chris, because,
Justin:I'm sure so many people are like, half the people listening were, like, the car or the assembly line. You know, every work environment I've been is an assembly line. So it's like product managers, like, they're the ones coming up with the user stories, and then they hand that off to the designer. The designer then creates the mock ups, and then they hand that off with detailed specs to the programmer who then works independently on the program. Right.
Jon:But there's at that point, there's no there's no problems to solve. It's like you're just like a robot doing the thing.
Justin:Yeah. But I I I was thinking about that as a like, that whole concept of work is way different than the way they do it, which is they have a leadership team that kind of shapes the rough thing and the contours of it, and then they hand it off to a team. And then the team works together in a very collaborative process to say, how are we going to implement this idea? And instead of it being all on one person to solve the problems, like, it it's like the product manager has to solve the spec problems. And then the designer has to solve the design problems.
Justin:And then the programmer has to solve the programming problems. Well, this is all interconnected. And so one thing I've been thinking about is, like, the beginning of that cycle, instead of me thinking, like, okay, my part's done. I'm gonna go work on something else while John implements this thing. It's like, how can we be more collaborative working on this thing together going, okay.
Justin:Here's, you know, here's our here's the rough sketches from the leadership team, which also happens to be us. But, you know, here's here's the rough sketches. Okay. What do we need to do next? Well, let's work on some HTML prototypes together.
Justin:And, you know, we're working on those together. And then going back and forth of okay. Well, what about this? What about this? Oh, that's interesting.
Justin:Go away for 5 days and not talk to each other and kinda think about it independently, and then
Jon:come
Justin:back and go, okay. No. I here's different ways we could do it. And kinda moving that ball along together as opposed to this really kind of separated work.
Jon:Yeah. Yeah. I'm I yeah. I'm looking forward to see how this process progresses, especially when we're in the cycle. Right?
Jon:Because, like, I'll be building a lot of this in the in the app itself, but, like, we should definitely collaborate. You know, we we should just do a share screen share and code together and, like, actually build build the interface in our app together without necessarily having to code it all just to see how it feels.
Justin:Yeah. You know, I'm actually that was something else I wanted to bring up was that we've had more phone calls lately. And I think there's something about me partly, actually, because, I I I've been such a you know, yeah. I have drink a lot of drank a lot of the base camp Kool Aid. And in my head, they don't do calls.
Justin:And so I think I've adopted that as, like, okay. Justin just doesn't do calls. Like, we can just talk on Slack or whatever and figure out stuff that way. But we've had more phone calls this past week, and there was something really nice about it about, like, okay. Let's just talk face to face about something.
Justin:And then and maybe whiteboard things in a collaborative doc or whatever. There's something about that that's helpful.
Gavin:Yeah. I I mean, I I think
Jon:it yeah. Definitely. It it does feel like you're a little more present, like Mhmm. Building the thing together. And I I I would I would assume that base camp does I mean, the leadership team, I think, gets together and works on this stuff together.
Jon:I think they're, you know, they're sketching and whiteboarding. And
Justin:Yeah. And and one thing I should see is if we can both get, gotta figure out if we can both get Tuple or something that I mean, Skype works okay, but I I have a few people that aren't on I'm on, like, a a version of Tuple that is just, like, I have some Laravel friends that are on there. And it's it's always in my menu bar. And you basically just like click on a person and then you're connected and you're screen sharing. And you can take over each other's keyboard and screen, and you can draw on each other's screens.
Justin:And it's, like, really good for pair programming. But I do think having a way of us, you know, being like, hey. Can we just quickly jump on a call?
Jon:You know, Imessage used to have that. I think they still do have screen sharing. It's really good.
Justin:Really? Yeah. FaceTime?
Jon:No. It's just built into Imessage on or messages on the Mac.
Justin:Really?
Jon:Yeah. What? Uh-huh. They they've had screen sharing.
Justin:Oh, yeah. Invite to share my screen.
Jon:Like, really high resolution, and and you can take over the keyboard and everything.
Justin:Oh, wait. I just invited Lorinda. Hold on. So I can okay. Here's John.
Justin:I'm gonna try this right now.
Jon:And I think it does voice and everything too.
Justin:Invite to share my screen. So what does that do? Does that call you right now?
Jon:Can accept it. This might screw up. We can try it later, but it might Yeah.
Justin:It might screw up everything. I'll decline it.
Jon:But, yeah, it I I haven't used it in years, and I forgot about it.
Justin:Okay. Well, we should do that. I that's one of the joys of being just a 2 person team is we can we can like, we don't have to go through all sorts of procurement. We can just try stuff like that out. Yeah.
Justin:We should try that. So screen sharing in Imessage.
Jon:Yeah. Or messages, I guess they call it now.
Justin:It's just called messages. Is it just called messages now? You're right. Yep.
Jon:They they've been getting rid of the whole I prefix and everything.
Justin:Oh, and the Facebook one is called messenger. What what a weird what a weird world we live in. Yep. I think for folks who are listening right now, if you have ideas on how you've collaborated, if you have idea we we got a lot of feedback also on 2 person teams and how they're doing this. I'd love to hear your thoughts and, you know, if you figured some stuff out that John and I haven't figured out.
Justin:Or if you see some, especially if you see some, blind spots. You like, you hear us talking and you hear us talking around something, but we're not maybe we're missing something. Yeah. I would love to, to hear from you. You can reach out to us on Twitter, at transistorfmor@buildyoursasor@johnbuda@mijustin.
Justin:All sorts of ways. You folks have been figuring it out. You can email us as well, shows at transistor.fm. John, why don't you, thank our Patreon supporters?
Jon:Alright. Yeah. Thanks as always to everyone who have been supporting us over the last year. So we have, Ben. Just Ben?
Justin:Yeah. It's just Ben. He he is from narrower.com if people wanna check that out, but he doesn't he didn't give his last name, so I I don't know if he wants to remain anonymous.
Jon:Thanks, Ben. Noah Praill, David Culligan, Robert Simplicio.
Justin:Which he he reached out to us and said that you said his name perfectly.
Jon:So That's good. Nice. Spanish lessons classes. Colin Gray from alitu.com, Josh Smith, Ivan Kerkovic, Brian Ray, Miguel Pedrafita, Shane Smith, Austin Loveless, Simon Bennett, Corey Hanes, Michael Sitwer, Paul Jarvis, and Jack Ellis, Dan Buddha.
Justin:Danbudda.com. Darby
Jon:Frey, Samori Augusto, Dave Young, Brad from Canada, Sammy Schubert, Dan Erickson, Mike Walker, Adam Devander, Dave
Justin:Junta. Junta.
Jon:Kyle Fox at get rewardful.com, and our sponsors this week, ProfitWell and ActiveCampaign.
Justin:Thanks everyone for listening. We will see you next week.
