This would kill our company immediately

- And see, I don't know how long we're gonna do this, but...

- Let's aim for 30 minutes and we'll end up talking for an hour.

- I will make it too much.

(upbeat music)

- Hey everyone, welcome to Build Your SaaS.

This is the behind-the-scenes story of building a web app in 2023.

I'm Jon Buda, a software engineer.

And I'm Justin Jackson; I do product in marketing, follow along as we build

(upbeat music)

And keep up to date on all the crazy,

latest happenings in the world.

- All your crazy sales tax and banking related.

- It's just the financial system is melting before our eyes.

But you went on vacation.

And so you were maybe oblivious to some of this.

How many times did you think about the banking sector

and sales tax while you were on vacation?

- Not at all.

- Ah, glorious.

- In fact, it was the first time I haven't opened my laptop.

Well, I was gone for like nine days.

They know my laptop once,

and that's the first time that's happened.

- Wow.

- I don't know.

- Eight years probably, like it.

- Dude, that's pretty nice.

- That's just success.

- Do you think you didn't open your laptop

'cause the internet was bad?

Or do you think it was it you were just fully in vacation?

- No, I just wanted to.

- Just wanted to be a vacation mode.

I mean, I kept up to date on my phone stuff

and talked to you guys.

But it's, you know, you can do that

from the beach while drinking margarita pretty easily.

And yeah, the internet was not great.

It was, you know, it worked okay,

but it wasn't like, it was not great.

- Yeah.

- I mean, that's a long time to have not kind of had a real

can't start unplug.

Was there any other kind of, how was it?

Like, what was the other parts of that?

Did it feel like you really got something back?

Did it feel renewing?

- Yeah, I felt, yeah, I was very respectful and renewing.

And yeah, it's nice to unplug.

I mean, you know, like I said,

I still kept in touch.

I wasn't like totally out of what was going on.

- Yeah, you're still slack.

- Which, you know, next time I could maybe just disappear

from that too, to leave my phone.

But I don't know, I still like to keep up to date.

I mean, it is, you know, our company.

- Yeah.

- I like to know what's going on.

But yeah, it was quite relaxing.

It's very nice.

- I mean, this was kind of your test run

for the six months to batical.

We keep talking about having.

- Yeah.


- We're Helen and Jason, we're on the team.

- Yeah, Helen and Jason just around the company.

And I mean, I think one thing that is obviously,

you and I bring a lot to the team

and to the product and to the company.

But it is incredible to see how much Jason and Helen


- Yeah.

- And sometimes they're just scheming away

in their own Slack channels.

Just deciding, hey, we should, you know, Jason just did a big,

well, Helen and Jason kind of schemeed on this together

and then Jason went and did it where we had basically folks

that have been on the platform who haven't paid in ages

like the card would fail, but we wouldn't kick them off.

It would just be kind of in limbo.

- Right.

Yeah, like their feeds still worked

and maybe they couldn't use the platform,

but they're everything still worked.

- So they're just basically getting free hosting.

- Obviously not great, but yeah, so Jason went ahead

and figured out, wrote a whole system

to notify people multiple times

and then automatically cancel accounts at work.

- Yeah.

- I mean, there's obviously Dunning systems.

Like we've always had a basic kind of Dunning in system,

but this is like next level for giving people warnings

at different stages depending on their status.

- Yeah.

- And it's amazing how many people, obviously,

if you're not paying, then actually here in this coworking place

for years, we just never got an internet bill

like for cable internet.

And it was just like fine.

And then all of a sudden, when they are internet,

got turned off, we were like, oh, yeah.

- Somebody found something in the system.

- Yeah, it's a good thing to put in place.

Yeah, a lot's happened though.

Let's talk briefly about the modern day run on a bank

because it was Silicon Valley bank.

And that we were actually a briefly an SVB customer.

- Yeah, I don't know how long we use them.

I mean, they were what stripe Atlas used

when we signed up and incorporated

and they just like automatically open it account for you.

- They were the only option for a long time.

Now, stripe Atlas offers you a few different options,

but yeah.

- Yeah, I mean, we used them and it was like,

it was a bank, it was fine, I guess.

But it was really hard to do stuff.

It's pretty inflexible.

I don't know, we used them for maybe a year.

I don't know, I mean, we didn't make money for a while.

I think you actually used thought we should switch

right away because we signed our partnership docs.

And I don't think I ever logged into Silicon Valley bank.

And then fairly soon after that,

I think you were like, let's get off this Silicon Valley

and we switched to capital one.

- We did capital one.

And then the capital one, I think they like

close that type of account down or something.

- Oh yeah, we had a small business account or something.

- When we put a login to the dashboard or something.

- Yeah.

- And so we found Mercury pretty early on.

- Yeah.

- When they were pretty new, I think.

- Yeah, yeah, that would have been,

yeah, it feels like we've been with them forever now.

I mean, the UX of Mercury is incredible.

But I think this whole bank in crisis has made us

rethink about what is a bank.


- Yeah, because Mercury is technically not a bank.

- So tell me, what is Mercury?

What is it?

- I saw this something online.

I think it was the guy that runs it to something.

He's like, we're not actually a bank.

We're like a software platform for your money,

but we work with banks.

They have partner banks.

- Okay.

- And that's where your money goes, right?

And I think they split it across multiple accounts

or something.

It looks like one account to you, but yeah.

- It's not, yeah, it's not technically a bank.

- Yes.

- It's all very seamless.

I mean, it's like, has worked great.

They have free international wires and like.

- The user experience is amazing.

And it doesn't feel like something that's been taped together.

It just, like we've sent tons of wires.

We've, it hooks up to our accounting platform well.

It feels like it just always works.

It's been very dependable.

And granted, we don't have millions of venture capital,

funny sitting in account, which I think,

I don't know if like SVB was better for that type of company,


- Well, apparently not.

They only had $250,000 of venture.

- Sure, deposit.

- Right, right.

- I think this whole episode, and honestly, it is awful.

I don't wanna make light of, you know,

a lot of these companies who've received funding

are still small businesses who are run by people like you

and I, they have employees like transistor

and, you know, not making payroll

and all of that stuff is awful.

And I also wanna recognize that not every company

can be structured like transistor,

but it did reveal how different it is

to be running a business that is just profitable.

And we don't keep a giant cash balance

with transistor.

- No, we don't.

- Generally, it's just like every month

our revenue is really consistent,

and it's basically always gone up,

even if it's only gone up by a little bit.

And that model is calmer at least

at this stage of history, that could change.

But it just revealed like, wow,

like this whole new financial era

we're in with high interest rates.

And now, you know, all the think pieces on medium

and other places are like,

now Silicon Valley's gotta get back to the basics,

get back to profitability, you know,

startups have to act like small businesses.

And, you know, for us, it's just been like,

well, that's, that was the style that always appealed to us.

And it, I think in most cases, especially

if the business you've started has a good financial engine,

and that's a huge caveat, caveat.

- Yeah.


- I think that's the same in Canada.

Sometimes I read that word at on my "Cavit"?

No, it's that "Cavit".

It's caveat.


You know, the caveat is that

it's hard finding a bit unive-tried other businesses

in our past and transistor by far has the best

financial engine of anything we've tried.

So obviously, that really helps

and to make it feel calm.

But yeah, it just did feel like,

and our friends that have businesses like that,

that in lands, means of the world,

the Michelle Hansons of the world,

they're running small software companies like us.

And I think all of us were kind of standing

on the outside of this going, wow.

Like, yeah, if you had a bunch of investment

and then all of a sudden you lost,

I mean, it wasn't just that they lost,

this would have also affected us

if all of a sudden our bank account got frozen.

Like that would have been not fun.

- Right, or, you know, the,

some of the providers we use are on out of money,

and then they can actually run their business.

- Yeah, it did make me think about transfer wise slash wise,

which is similar to Mercury.

I think it's just a,

some amorphous tech chrome on top of a,

something on the back end, you know.

- Right.

- But breaking news from Mercury, they're obviously,

I think all the banks, all the smaller banks

or bank like things are trying desperately

to retain customers, 'cause they unfortunate,

side effect of all this is that a lot of businesses,

including small businesses,

but large depositors, especially are moving their funds

from smaller banks to the big banks.

And you're gonna, you know, there's,

especially in the States, you're gonna have a situation

where all the big money is at chase,

and then it's gonna make it even harder to regulate

that the big banks,

because they're gonna always, all of them,

they will be much too large to fail.

- Yeah, I think, yeah, maybe.

I think the government did the right thing now,

and kind of, how they reacted and kind of

prevented a bunch of different bank runs,

but I think Mercury actually got a lot of new customers

from other banks.

- Yeah, that's true.

It'd be interesting to know how,

how this actually shook out for them,

'cause I see two trends,

one, people moving their money out of smaller banks,

like Mercury, and two, I've heard that a lot of people

were switching to Mercury.

- Mm-hmm.

- But yeah, they just announced.

We've worked with our partner banks

to offer additional FDIC insurance.

First to $1 million, then to $3 million,

now we've got a step further, by Monday,

you have access to up to $5 million in FDIC insurance,

20 times the per banking limit.

- Yeah, I think that's something to do with how they

exploit your money across accounts.

- Yeah, behind the scenes.

- And there's also, it's not clear

if every depositor gets that,

the other thing is that every time I've had to deal

with insurance, it really sucks.

So it's like, sure you might get your money bank back,

but if accounts get frozen or whatever,

it's still sucks, 'cause then you've got,

even a week without access to your bank account.

- Yeah, but I think once the FDIC steps

and they're pretty efficient, they're pretty good at what they do.

I don't think it's not like working with some crappy

insurance company.

- Yeah, yep, yep, yep.

- Yeah, so the interesting,

it'll be interesting to watch that.

I think we should talk about this next item

that I'm highlighting.

Are you okay if we talk about that?

- Yeah.

- Okay, we've had some folks that have said

maybe we shouldn't talk about it,

but I think it's better to talk about it than not.

Section 174, folks, if you have a software company

in the United States, you need to be aware

of Section 174.

Basically, it is treating software development costs

and there's some confusion about this,

but the more I've read into the US tax code,

the more it seems like,

and now we actually have people who are trying,

who are having assessed by the IRS.

So we know that these assessments are actually even happening,

this will dramatically increase the amount of tax

that you pay,

because instead of saying a development salary

is an expense, you have to categorize it

as a research in development?

- Yes, and then you have to amortize that over

- Five years. - Five years, yes.

- Thanks.

- Yeah, which makes your taxable income way higher.

- The example I'll link to it in the show notes

from Ian Lansman is, let's say on a million dollars revenue,

normally you have dev salaries that equal 500,000,

and your tax rate would be 30%,

so your tax bill would be 75,000.

Under this new system, your tax bill would be 225,000.

It dramatically increases.

It basically, this legislation makes no sense

for small software companies.

It is actively harmful for small software companies.

And sometimes software companies and small software companies,

we kind of live in this world of magical thinking,

where I mean you and I are also predisposed to this.

Well sales tax, we don't need to worry about that right now,

or well, we're small companies,

we don't need to worry about that.

- This actually could have a meaningful effect

on people's businesses.

- Yeah, especially like, you know,

if you don't last for five years,

'cause every year you're gonna amortize more and more, right?

So it piles up and it gets you paying less and less over the years,

but like the first year or two is gonna be like,

that's massive hit.

- So Michelle Hansen, friend of the show,

she's the co-founder of Geocodio,

she has started the small software business alliance,, I'll put the link in the show note.

If you, oh, she's actually expanded this now,

she's got a great TLDR here too.

If you have a small software business

that is incorporated in the United States,

you need to go there, put your name and email in there.

She is going to be kind of the central communication

hub for all this stuff.

She's in contact with people in Washington, DC,

and she's working on some stuff behind the scenes,

she can't talk about yet, but we really do need

to make our voices heard on this.

And if you are a US citizen,

you also have an opportunity to contact your representative.

This is, I can sign up for this here

as a co-founder of transistor, but only John

can contact his state representative

and say, this is going to affect me.

And Michelle even recommends calling them,

they have to record every phone call.

And there's actually a big chance this goes through

and a smaller chance, even if we make noise

that, even if we make noise, there's no guarantee,

but at least there's a possibility.

- Yeah, I mean, from reading about it is like,

nobody really wanted it anyway,

and yet they voted on it, but they didn't read it.

It's like, they don't read this stuff anyway.

And they just voted it, they just voted in,

and they're like, oh wait, no that's a bad idea.

- This is a classic case of,


it's a classic case of just fucked up politics

and it sucks, it really does suck.

I actually, I was thinking about this the other day

because are you familiar with Peter Levels,

no mad list?

It's like a site where that you can put in,

like, hey, I want sunshine, but,

you know, I want it to be safe, and I want it to be,

you know, you can put it all these criteria.

It's almost like we need a SaaS list,

which is like a way of filtering

what is the best place to incorporate your company?

Because there's all these, like if this comes into law,

that would be a substantial reason

to incorporate your company somewhere else.

But on the flip side, if we incorporate it anywhere

but the US, your stripe, your stripe, your stripe,

your feet, go up substantially.

So if you're a stripe, if you're incorporating Canada

using stripe, all of your US credit cards,

I believe are treated as foreign, right?

They're not domestic.

And so you pay an additional 1% or 1.5%.

There's all of these factors that make it like,

"Ah, maybe we shouldn't incorporate here,

maybe we shouldn't incorporate here, maybe we should..."

Yeah, it'd be nice if there's a central place to,

like, if the best place to incorporate your company

is in Saskatchewan, Canada, let's do it.


No, it's Reagan, I have Saskatchewan.

That felt like a nice thing to say about Saskatchewan.

I'm like, "Mail, may we should look at there."

Let's, how long have we gone now?

Oh, wow, already 20 minutes.

Okay, well let's do a little sales tax compliance update

because I think that's what people are here for.

The exciting part of this.

Yeah, we, Chris, we need a little sales tax jingle here, you know?

(upbeat music)

Sales tax complaints.

(upbeat music)

That's the first line, I'll keep working on it.

So I think the most relevant news here is that

Reven has just shut down.

What is Reven, Justin?

So Reven was one of these merchants of record

that was recommended to us by folks saying,

and I'm gonna, (laughing)

I'll use my voice, but you know, like,

they were like, "Hey, you just got a merchant of records,

Reven, they'll solve your problems, quit complaining."

You know, we had concerns back then.

Now they've shut down and I have even more concerns

about all merchants of record.

So here's the email that they sent customers.

No public announcement, by the way, very weird.

They just all sudden changed their homepage.

Now apparently they do.

If you go to, I think it goes to now.

So now they're a consulting company.

Here's a quote from the email.

The most relevant reason that we're shutting down

is that the merchant of record model is too risky

for both sellers and the merchant of record operator.

What are they talking about here?

Okay, sell back to the email.

Sellers bear the risk of platform shutdown

as seen in the example of flerly and stripe.

Now I hadn't heard of this.

What they're talking about here,

what happened to flerly was that some folks

were using flerly as a merchant of record

became engaged in illegal activity.

At which point, stripe sent them an email saying,

there's folks using your stripe account

who are in violation of regulations

and will be subject to substantial fines.

Examples of violations including selling copyright products,

selling pharmaceuticals.

And because of that, stripe had to shut flerly's stripe account

down which included all of the merchants

that they were being the merchants record for.

Yeah, and that's what Reven would do too.

Right, we would be, we would have been part of that account.

Yeah, this is, this is what would happen with any.

Yeah, I mean, that would just kill our business immediately.

So I'm going to put that link in the show notes.

So back to their email, the merchant record operator could potentially

become involved in a legal activity,

quickly, which could lead to all sorts of problems.

The problems are that the people processing your credit cards

because they add now this whole account,

we're just going to shut down or this whole account,

we're just going to put on pause or this whole account,

we're going to just think of all the times you've seen on Twitter,

where for some reason, this is always a risk.

For some reason, someone's PayPal account gets flagged.

Yeah. And they're like, they send out a emergency tweet,

"Paypal, please help me, someone's my count's been shut down or my count's been flagged

and I can't get it out of here. I need to get the money. I can't,

it's a nightmare for the individual.

But now, imagine assuming all of that risk,

you're just going to go into a pool. It's like going into an email deliverability pool,

or a web hosting pool where you're all on the same height.

Yeah, the shared server. Yeah.

It's the same risk. And this is something I hadn't even considered

before with merchants of record. Yeah, that makes it much, much less appealing,

or not appealing at all. Especially after these bank runs.

It's like, I mean, this is a risk. Of course, this is a risk with any credit card processing you do.

Again, PayPal, Stripe, etc. The difference is this is like a party line.

Everybody's sharing the same stripe account. And so that exposes you to a risk.

In the same way that if you send it with a merchant of record,

you start paying, you have to start submitting taxes and collecting taxes for basically

every tax region in the world because you've already hit all the thresholds. Why? Because it's the

merchant of record is being treated as the business there. Well, now you're also exposing yourself

to all of that merchant of records customers. Anybody else they are being a merchant of record for.

And that and you have no idea who they are. So at any point, and this could happen to paddle.

I don't know who paddle and lemon squeezy and these other folks use as their credit card processing.

I'm guessing that a lot of these services do just use stripe. Stripe has their own risk assessment

people. And if somebody on that account, fox up or does something illegal, it affects everybody in

the merchant of record pool. Yeah, that's why. Or like, you know, I flierly or a revenue

was a bad act that they just be like, "Oh, we're just taking your money closing your account and going to

Jamaica." Back to the email. Because this is, I don't, again, this is just one

company's perspective from Reven, but furthermore, it became increasingly clear that the merchant of record

model primarily appeals to small scale sellers or businesses with questionable and high risk business

models. This presents a significant challenge as we strive to move up the market. The recent change

in Stripes risk behavior has caused us to experience issues with keeping Stripe accounts live.

End of email quotes. This is a big deal. Now, I'm sure, especially some of the more mature

merchants of record like paddle, I'm sure they have ways of mitigating some of these risks,

which I'd love to hear from them. But it shows first of all that trusting, I mean, even Reven's,

they describe themselves as an envy, they built an MVP and to test out the market, that I don't want

to hand my business over to an MVP. Any company that's brand new, there's just something about it that

is stressful. It feels too risky to hand your business over to something that's new and

improve. I mean, hand your bank account over to somebody like that. Yeah. So yeah, we've talked,

we kept talking about solutions. One solution was maybe we should get your brother to help us out.

Yeah, I mean, he had listened to our episodes and I talked him for a bit and he was like,

you know, when I was in Texas working at the Capitol, he actually worked on some legislation when they were

they were working on sales tax legislation for Amazon at the time. There's a long time ago,

but so he, I mean, he read all the legislation and probably helped write some stuff and he knows people who

still work there at certain parts of the government are like these tax accounting firms who know

the ins and outs of not just Texas, but basically they have to keep up with what every state's doing.

Yeah. Whatever we decide it might be turning on Stripe Tax and using Tax Jarphers stuff, but then

yeah, having someone like my brother actually managed some of that stuff by his hands and do the

payments and registrations and I'm for it. Yeah, we'll see. I mean, you know, I am still interested in

us publishing as much of this stuff publicly. We've got it on the podcast, but I think it'd be nice to

have a, you know, maybe I'm a high, something like Michelle's small spot for business

alliance and maybe that's the platform. But to be able to publish more of this publicly to share

our experience and to share some of these things that just aren't being talked about, I again, I think

what's challenging about this is if you're brand new, if you're small company, a lot of this

probably feels like superfluous or, you know, maybe you and I are overreacting or complaining to

much, but once you're actually in it and actually having to figure all this stuff out, it just becomes

clear so quickly that there's no way, it's not humanly possible even for these merchants of record

to be 100% completely compliant with every tax region in the world at any given moment. Right.

The legislation's changing all the time. The rules are changing all the time and even, like I said,

I've, I've noticed errors on multiple platforms, multiple merchants of record platforms where they're

making the calculations wrong or they're showing the wrong information on the receipt.

It's very, very difficult to do this and as has been mentioned before, tomorrow,

Moose Joss is Gatchewon could say, well, now, anybody who buys SaaS products in Moose Joss

is subject to a 35% tax could send emails to all the companies in the world. Hey, you know,

hey, digital ocean, hey, Amazon, hey Microsoft, you are now in violation of the Moose Joss tax code

section 102 section B and you know, like then and they think a week out of your life to make it

to make it work right and and you know payments to the Moose Joss tax office must be done in person between the

business hours of 10 and 3 PM Tuesday to Thursday. Please, facts this form to this number.

Please call this number and do the the mail moose mating call and then you will be greeted with a five-digit code.

It's ridiculous. Yeah, it's a lot. I mean, it just consumes you after a while and you're like,

I don't want to think about this. I'm just going to ignore it and then it's just like this.

You know what, going through this software is a pretty nice business to be in.

Some of the stuff just feels oppressive. It just feels like, I know, some people are going to say that's

an over exaggeration, but like the things that you have to until you've actually done it,

until you've owned a business. Some of the stuff is just feels like why are cities, states and provinces,

countries and then platforms like stripe. Why are they making it so difficult to be a small business?

It feels like it's actively, it actively makes business more difficult. And this is everything.

It's insurance. I was talking to my friend who runs a little Main Street business here.

Guess how much he pays and insurance every month? Five grand. No, not quite five grand.

What's the business? I don't know what to do. It's a little shop, little record shop,

just tiny store like under a thousand square feet, probably 500 square feet.

Just an insurance. Is that like fire insurance or inventory insurance?

It's liability and some inventory insurance. But 500 bucks a month.

And I was thinking about it. I'm like, I don't even, I should look at our insurance bill.

But I would be surprised if we're paying that much. And that's more than a significant portion of

his expenses is just insurance. These kinds of things, I think entrepreneurship is amazing. I think

that small businesses are kind of like the lifeblood of any economy. And I don't think enough people are

talking about it. Maybe because they don't want to seem like complainers.

But it's hard. It's hard. I mean, you asked, you asked, certainly doesn't make it easy.

I mean, Canada probably not either. But city planning departments and Chicago SaaS sales taxes.

Like I could tell you one thing that they should all do right away is increase your exemption limit.

Don't make it one transaction and then you've crossed the threshold. Just increase the exemption limit

and give small businesses some breathing room. Anyway, that ends our sales tax complaints section.

Sales tax complaints.

On a positive note, you just released a new software. I did. Yeah, we've been kind of working on this

for a while. It's an integration with Patreon, which has been interesting.

We'll probably have some, I'm sure I'll have more and more updates as people use it and time goes on.

But essentially, you can hook up, you can connect your Patreon account to your podcast and

do the pull-in all your supporters and display the minor website and show notes as well.

Show notes and have a nice little section where people can join the Patreon campaign and show you

like, you know, if you have progress towards a goal and that's going and show out new supporters and your

show notes. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. There's even a little, we have these liquid tags that you can

specifically highlight new supporters since the last episode. Yeah, it's really cool. And then a little

widget on the bottom of the website that says this podcast has 16 supporters or whatever. So yeah,

that was really cool to roll that out. Lots of folks have already implemented it. It's one of those

things where we announced it and even before we announced that people were discovering it and adding it,

you know, adding it to their show. So felt cool to be able to do something with monetization.

We think that, you know, even earning a little bit of money from your podcast and go a long way.

So yeah, it's fun. Yeah, I think, yeah, there's, you know, there's other features of thinking about

related to this or on top of this or other platforms that we can integrate with,

do something similar to Patreon or, yeah, you see, see how this one goes, but so far, people are

using it. Yeah, yeah, it's exciting. I'm, I think monetization is one of those things that we want to be

thinking more about. And it is a little bit more complicated. One of the reasons we chose Patreon was

because the complications of like using stripe or PayPal, it's just a bit of a harder lift.

And this was like, okay, a lot of our customers already used Patreon. Let's just do this as the initial

thing to get us going. Yeah. I've been hiring Josh and Riton to help me work on a bunch of marketing

site stuff and we've been rolling that out. It's been really fun to have a big refresh. And yeah,

it just feels like every day we've got something new to look at. He's also worked on a new podcast

website theme that is getting pretty close. Yeah, it's been pretty close to being done. So that's been

exciting. It's a, it's a much different theme than we've had so far, which is, which will be cool.

And I released a little side project. My pod that I like folks to go check out is

yeah. I'm thinking more about my studio, my studio's embarrassing. And uh, you're asked your

turf. Yeah, I got some master turf on the ground, but it's just, it's not for for the amount of time

I'm on camera for transistor and for the amount of time I have to show up on interviews and, you know,

like I did that descript live stream. He did a bookshelf factor that makes you look smart. I know all the

things are reading. Text clients law. Text clients law. I would love that. I should just frame

some tax compliance law. People are like, hey, what's in the background? Oh, that section 32 B from Moose

Justice Gatchuin. I don't know. I need that. He's read that during lunch. I love it. I'm big fan.

So I've been thinking about how to improve my studio and I thought, okay, one way to get inspired is to

look at studios I like. Yeah. And so I started this little site using indie hacker and

longtime supporter of the show, Val Sobi, his, uh, he's got a little product called blog static and,

uh, just made a little site and featured Steven Robles, who's got a really bunch of cool podcasts on

transistor, Apple and Satter, HomeKit and Satter movies on the side. Anyway, if you want to see some

pretty studio photos, um, head over to my pod Cool. All right. Well, John,

now's the time to use our feature and thank our Patreon supporters. Yeah. Thanks, everyone. As always,we have:

Thanks to our monthly supporters
Greg Park
Mitchell Davis from
Marcel Fahle,
Ethan Gunderson
Anton Zorin from
Bill Condo (@mavrck)
Alex Payne
Ward from
Russell Brown from
Evandro Sasse
Austin Loveless
Michael Sitver
Fathom Analytics
Dan Buda
Colin Gray
Darby Frey
Dave Giunta.

Giunta. Giunta. We need a new podcast. Just called Giunta.

Yeah. Giunta. It's just Dave. It's just Dave. Just talking about chats with Dave.

Yeah. Dave, if you want to start the Junta podcast, let us know.

Well, we will show up for that. Actually, that would be fun. It's like whoever wants to show up,

shows up. Dave just announces the time shows up. So I'm ever shows up. That's the show.

Sounds good. All right, everyone. Thanks for listening. Please reach out if you've got comments

or thoughts. We'd love to hear from you. And we'll see you next week.

This would kill our company immediately
Broadcast by